Ballymore and the Long Game of Value Creation with Brian De'ath

In this episode of Bricks & More, Adrian Strittmatter is joined by Brian De’Ath, Managing Director of Sales & Marketing at Ballymore, to unpack what real value creation looks like in residential real estate – beyond pricing models, amenities arms races, and short-term gains.

At the heart of the conversation is Embassy Gardens and its final chapter, The Capston – a 21-year regeneration journey that reframes value not as a number to be maximised, but as a place to be perfected.

Key talking points:

🏙️ Why the best developments don’t start with price – they start with “the best place to live”

🧠 How buyer value has shifted from calculators to emotional conviction and lived experience

🎭 Why art, culture, and storytelling only work when they’re authentic – not decorative

🚪 How overlooked details (like lift cars, circulation, and arrival moments) quietly drive long-term value

🤝 Why trust, honesty, and human connection matter more than ever in selling off-plan

📉 What London’s stalled pipeline really means – and why scarcity will reshape future value

If you’re interested in how bold vision, obsessive execution, and long-term thinking turn developments into destinations – this episode is a masterclass in how value is felt, not just calculated.

Ballymore’s website: http://ballymoregroup.com/ 

Adrian’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrianstrittmatter 

Saentys: https://saentys.com/ 

Transcript

Adrian Strittmatter 0:08

Hi, I'm Adrian Strittmatter. Welcome to Bricks and More. I'm the CEO and Co-founder of Saentys, a global creative consultancy specializing in destinations real estate and the hospitality sector. Bricks and More is all about exploring how to generate, unlock, and maximize real estate value. Our mission is to challenge outdated and limiting notions of how this is done. In each episode, we talk to top professionals to uncover innovative strategies that drive short, medium and long-term gains. So if you are passionate about making real estate more valuable for more people, you're in the right place. Welcome to Bricks and more. London's residential market is evolving faster than ever, and the developments that succeed are the ones brave enough to pair bold vision with flawless execution. In this episode of Bricks and More, we dive into one of the most ambitious regeneration stories of the past decade. Embassy Gardens and the launch of its extraordinary final chapter, the capstone. We unpack what it really takes to shape a neighborhood, create long-term value, and set new standards in design, service, art, and cultural placemaking. This is where ambition meets execution and where great development becomes great city making to guide us through. I'm joined by someone who knows the London residential market better than almost. Anyone. Brian Death Managing Director of Sales and Marketing at bmore Across 27 years, Brian has helped deliver and sell over 2 billion pounds worth of London property from Wood Wharf to South Bank Place, shaping some of the city's most recognizable addresses. At Ballymore, he leads a high performing team driving sales and marketing across one of Europe's most. Innovative development pipelines. Brian brings deep sector insight, sharp commercial thinking, and a rare understanding of how to build places that truly resonate, but also stand the test of time. So let's dive straight in. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian De'Ath 2:14

Thank you very much, Adrian. Delighted to be here.

Adrian Strittmatter 2:16

It's an absolute honor. Um, you know, I'm sort of, probably not in the same way as a fellow sales and marketing person myself, so it's really good to be able to exchange, you know, our, our experiences. Um. You've worked across, across London, some of the most transformative developments. What drew you to sort of residential or just real estate in general? What was the, what was the journey?

Brian De'Ath 2:37

Um, the journey. Journey. It feels like we've got strictly come dancing already. The J word. What's your journey? What's your journey, Brian? Well, my journey, the words Drew and journey would all be too big for it. It was all happenstance and accident. Um, I came back from traveling a year after uni. Uh, I think my father was, you are not spending more than a week in here without getting a job. There was no plan, no grand overarching plan. Uh, very first job I interviewed for was Faron Suta, which was, um, it was bought out by John D. Wood many years ago. Oh, okay. Okay. Uh, run by chap called Faron. Came over from Persia, set it up in, uh, west London, and I became a trainee, lettings negotiator on 10,000 pounds a year. And a Kreg Red Rover car. Uh, and that was my entry into a state agency. Yeah. Uh, and I spent, um, a good few years working in estate agents mm-hmm. In various parts of the town. And then, um, joined Barclay Homes in 2004. Okay. Um, so accidental. Mm-hmm. Uh, lesson I could say like everyone else. I had an interest in property who doesn't, we all live in them. Um, but it was, um, pure chance. And what kept you going then? Oh, I think, I'll tell you what really kept me going. Mm-hmm. The move from estate agency to development. Okay. I had, um, someone else in the same estate agency division that I then transferred to who went to work at Barkley Homes. Mm-hmm. Down in Wooler arsenal. The schemes still going. Mm-hmm. Says a lot about development and the way they expand and, and the very, so fast. So, yeah, no, I would suggest it's more Barkley's buying strategy, buying the sites around them rather than the speed of development. Um, and he said, oh, I've joined this company down in Woolwich. It's unbelievable. You'd love it. He said, it's really professional and you get to do the things you want to do in the state agency, but don't get to do. And, and that sort of piqued my interest and I went down there and ran a marketing suite or two for him with some really brilliant teams. Um, many of them I'm still friends with today. Mm-hmm. Um. And I loved it. I loved the whole value creation from planning, laying out apartments, the pricing of schedules, the sensitivities around it. Mm-hmm. You know, the tactics involved and the strategy in launching. You know, it's not as simple as applying a price to something and then, you know, building it and they will come, as Kevin Costner says, in Field of Dreams. It's, I loved all of that. I loved it. So that kept me in, in the industry, I'd say.

Adrian Strittmatter 4:59

And then in terms of going to those different organizations and sort of, you know, building on your experience, what would you say are the, the kind of. Um, mark out standout or seminal moments that we said, okay, there's been a shift in the market, or we are having to adapt, or This formula doesn't work anymore. Have you got a couple of like, key, key milestones and dates within that sort of development?

Brian De'Ath 5:25

2008 to 14, I was at, um, Mount Anvil and. Those guys had just killing Hurley Dara's. Now obviously CEO. Mm-hmm. Um, had just got into, uh, residential. Mm-hmm. They'd previously been a main contractor. Mm-hmm. Uh, built developments for, um, RSLs as they were at the time. Um, and they were looking to pivot to a residential and thought there was an opportunity and they had the skillset internally to pivot to that. Mm-hmm. Market it themselves, et cetera. And I was very lucky enough that they saw something in me. I was able to join them at an absolutely transformative moment for them and me. Yeah. So that we, well, and the market actually. Yeah. And the market. So it was unbelievable. Yeah. I was moving across those things. It was just prior to things falling apart. Mm-hmm. Then as I'd been there for six to eight months, the thing did fall apart. Um, and I, I. When we say it now to younger people, they think, well, it couldn't have been exciting. You go, it was, it was unbelievable. Every single day something happened that you had never seen before. Mm. You had never experienced this. I had somebody that, um, I was receiving letters from, um, doctors committing patients because you couldn't sue someone for the balance of their deposit if they had been committed. Uh, there was, there was some unbelievable things you were saying on the day-to-day basis. I'm like, I've never opened a letter. That said this before and all these loopholes, who knew? Who knew? Um, and, and, and we were giving presentations to banks in cinemas about how we would, you know, how we would get from this position to this position. And I think from my perspective especially, it got me to see a business from top to bottom. Mm-hmm. Because you wouldn't have seen it if everything had just been sailing along. Magnifi it,

Adrian Strittmatter 7:12

sailing along. Yeah. And then on the people side, how do you. Foster that excitement. How do you, how do you create those sales teams? Um, I think it's something that we've, you know, as, as, as you know, on our side, as the agency, it's always, it's always. To spot the commercial potential in someone and to say, okay, that's their style. This is her style. How, how does that, how do you, on the personal level, how'd you do that?

Brian De'Ath 7:35

Yeah, well, number one, it's just immediately a good person, uh, you know, your me, everyone's measure of a good person might be slightly different, but I'm uninterested in someone that might consider themselves a good sales person or a good marketeer, or a good completions consultant. I'm just interested in really. Good quality people. Mm-hmm.'cause I think the skills are something that we can teach them, but I can't teach them to have a moral compass in the right place. Mm-hmm. Or I can't teach them to come to me when they know they've done something wrong and tell me what it is they've done wrong. Yeah. So I can make it better. Um, I think so that for me has been a sort of guiding principle. Mm-hmm. Um, I've also. Believed in leading by example. Mm-hmm. Um, now that's a difficult one because I suppose the maximum size of teams I've led are probably, as I'm now say, 30, 35 people. Oh, it's still, but it's still small enough that you can be present, know everybody, be engaged in what they're doing on a daily basis. And so there isn't any job I wouldn't do if the end result isn't going to get. To the result we all require for the business. Mm-hmm. If that means I empty that bin because it needs to be empty to make this marketing suite look great. Of course that's what I do. I was scrubbing a bit of graffiti off a holding line the other day not to have a go at somebody else for not having scrubbed it off.'cause it might have only gone on there five minutes ago, but it needed doing. Mm-hmm. Um, so I never stepped, never stepped past the job and I wouldn't expect the team to.

Adrian Strittmatter 8:55

And in terms of being able to really sell a property, what is it? What is the level of. Because there needs to be that shared experience with the potential buyers, ma. Yes. So how do you, how do you train for that? How do you. How do you, how do you transpose the value that you know and believe is in the development to the people that you are selling it to?

Brian De'Ath 9:14

So as I've gone through the years, it's been interesting how we've organized the journey through the sales environment, whether that's marketing suite or the actual property itself. And the number one thing is not giving information from our side until we've reached a point where we're comfortable with what the purchaser's looking for. The purchasers get overexcited. Look at this model. Do not put the models down by the entranceway when they first walk in. Do not put any information, which they can glean anything on their own about what it is that you have to offer. So as I've become a bit more experienced at this and perhaps a little bit more set in my ways for, for good or bad, that first. Entrance experience should just be a very beautiful one and a very relaxing one. And a human one. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, my God, it's all about the people. Yeah. Um, people buy people, we know that they won't buy a pe they won't, they buy people, but if the, what the person's offering is terrible, that won't be enough to, they won't overcome the, that's, yeah. Um, so it's been cre an environment not wildly dissimilar from where we're sat here today and say, so what is it you're looking for? You know, how can I help? I don't know. You tell me you're looking for a property in London. What's the purpose? Is it for your child to come here and study? Is it for you to live in? Is it a peer to tear? And for us, getting that information helps us get them excited because I can now tailor what I'm going to show them for their, you know, I can benefit to their needs. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, so, so that's definitely something that we've spent a lot of time making sure we don't just jump straight to the answer. I know what you need. It's a 1.6 million pound two bed on the ground floor and No, no, no. Let's, let's find out what it is that they, they, um, what are the things they're looking for.

Adrian Strittmatter 10:52

Do you think in terms of purchases? And then we can get onto obviously the, the developer side. But in terms of the purchases, do you think. What they value in a residential property has changed or their perception of value?

Brian De'Ath 11:06

Well, the people we are selling to, yes. I'm not sure about overarchingly, what the man on the street might consider a purchaser. We sell most of our properties off plan. Mm-hmm. And the development world wants to sell most of its properties off plan. It needs to, otherwise it doesn't exist and de-risk and everything. Uh, and so, so if you go back. Seven or eight years. Our purchaser was someone sat there with a calculator and the purchaser would be sitting there looking at a two dimensional floor plan with a calculator in front of him with a yield. You know, what's my, what's my net yield? That's my gross yield. What does the number that gets thrown outta the calculator, I think I will buy this development. Mm, fantastic. That's super, that, that was a, a time and a place, um, mathematical, rational. Absolutely. And there are still people buying on the basis of property as a pure investment. Mm-hmm. And they will still be making all of those decisions, but we are, you know, they do not make up the majority of our buyers, the majority of our buyers. Now, if I looked at the last two to three years, would be 85, 90% on use. Own use perhaps for them to live in as their primary residence, peer to tear for their children to live in, to study in the uk. Uh, and they're buying two or three years off plan, but they're buying emotionally as well as rationally. Mm-hmm. They want to make the right choice. They didn't get enough money to buy this apartment by being silly, and we shouldn't treat them as such. They're buying. A million, 2 million, 3 million pound apartment because they've done very well in life generally, and they've made some very good decisions. So I would like to help them make another good decision. Mm-hmm. That good decision might not actually be at our development, and we're generally very comfortable with that. If they walk in and say, I need a five bedroom townhouse. I've got two cars I need to park in a garage. And I say, well, I've got two bedroom department and no parking, but let me convince you why this should be for you. That's not two, get two, knock'em through, build a garage yourself. Go in for planning. Um, so, so our job, I see the job of myself and the sales guys, um, in terms of finding the best solution to the people that are coming in front of us. But we may not have the solution. Don't try and force it. It doesn't work.

Adrian Strittmatter 13:04

Do you see, um, and this sort of brings us to, to sort of, to Ballymore, uh, the company you are currently at. Do you see there being a. Fidelity trust of people who will have purchased multiple properties coming from you. And how do you create that continuum, that relationship with them? Post purchase and maybe occupation?

Brian De'Ath 13:27

If they're in the Yeah, if I, if I give just examples. Of course. It's easiest of course. Easiest way to give it course. Yeah. Um, in the last year, we would have revisited three of our sites, um, for people that have moved in two, three years ago. Mm-hmm. And said. What's your experience been of living on this development? Whole range of different questions, free text answers. In an environment where we invite 50 or a hundred of them to come, have a drink in the evening in one of the residents lounges, and there is no such thing as the right answer. We're not looking for anything. We're trying to understand what they think of our amenities. Which ones have been of most benefit to you? Which ones did you think would be of most benefit before you moved in? When you did move in? Which one are you using? Yeah. You found you didn't do a hundred laps of the pool every morning. You instead found, you used the screening room. Um, so we are constantly engaging with those people. Mm-hmm. Not just, you immediately bought from me. Now from my, the benefit of my customer service survey. I need to hear from you. Yeah. You That's, we'll go back years later. Mm-hmm. So we're willing to listen. I think, um, Sean Mul, Ryan chairman, founder, CEO, um, if you're in a meeting with Sean, Sean's constantly saying, what have we done wrong? What's people's feedback? What should we do better next time? It shouldn't be, how do we do this again? You know, he goes, we've learned those lessons. We know what's good. We're gonna take that forward. I'm gonna take that as red'cause I have some clever people here, so let's assume that's done. Yeah. Now let's challenge ourselves and, and, and let's not. Sweep things under the carpet because you don't learn from it at that stage. You've just hidden it.

Adrian Strittmatter 14:53

No, exactly. In terms of the, so that, it's obviously a company that's been extremely successful has lasted a very long period of time in an, in a really changing market. I mean, you know, just over the last 20 years, um, we've seen shifts, massive shifts. What would you say the philosophy is? Behind value creation. And I understand that value creation is, you know, a broad, a broad sense definition. But what is, what is the North star? What has been the guiding principle?

Brian De'Ath 15:23

So I think. I think the question almost is trying to arrive at an end point that's too far away. Mm. I don't think we ever arrive at a site Ballymore and previously where I might have worked saying, how are we going to increase the value of this and where's the value creation? We'll look at the site as a whole go. How can we create the very best place to live? And if we start with that, we're going to make lots of right decisions, then the value in in itself will be inherent and will be unlocked by making right decisions. Yeah. So I don't ever say, what's the maximum price I can get to on this site? What is this? This sort of arbitrary plucking of a number. Oh, I think this, I think that, well, hold on. What do we think it's worth today? Let's sell the very, very best building that we can at this price. If people have that brilliant experience, if we can, then we can increase the price on the next phase if it's feasible to, if it's not well, we'll be selling at the same price. You know? You can only do so much to counter the market as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. People can believe themselves. Geniuses within this environment. Um, I think the dial, the market moves the dial by far more, uh, larger degrees than anything we can do.

Adrian Strittmatter 16:29

And you still think, and, and everyone still thinks that there is still. This is weird, like value in developing residential in, uh, in London. Well, with there only being 3,200 new home starts this year, it seemed that increasingly small amount of people think there's value. Mm. I think Why Do you think there's been that shift? Or have a lot of, a lot of people you've seen have exited the market, have gone, or it's too expensive to build or whatever the Yeah.

Brian De'Ath 16:53

Not exited the market. Mm. There's been obviously stasis for a while now. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Um. And I think you have people that would love to be developing. I think there is almost this perfect storm of construction inflation. Mm-hmm. Uh, costs on build, um, lack of, um, inflation on sales values in the last 10 years in Central London generally, I. Um, then you've got Gateway two, uh, that's just been brought in by, um, obviously a British safety regulator. Mm-hmm. Which has caused an inordinate amount of delay. You've got a period which was suggested, it would be a 12 week period to, um, receive sign off. Mm-hmm. That is in most cases, probably taking upwards of a year. Uh, I'm sure they will resolve that. But that obviously doesn't help that still, that's not, doesn't help the pipeline. No. And, and the government obviously has just come forward, uh, recently with, um, some proposals, which they're obviously debating at the moment. Um, but those proposals that they're talking about are looking at the front end issues. That still doesn't meet the demand sector. Mm-hmm. So you may lower, um, you may lower affordable housing numbers to allow what on paper looks like a better way to bring development forward, but you still need somebody to be buying this at the end. Yeah. But that's the thing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And, and we haven't seen those demand levels recently.

Adrian Strittmatter 18:09

Is that because of the. Well, obviously the market, but where the buyers are coming from as well. Has that shifted in some way?

Brian De'Ath 18:16

No, absolutely. The buyer, the buyer demographic has shifted dramatically. Um, I think, um, with us needing to generally sell off plan, uh, to be able to support, uh, the forward sales, supporting the development as a whole, uh, the financing of developments, et cetera, then you've found that a traditional UK based buyer hasn't been that comfortable buying three or four years off plan. It's not been something that has. Hmm. Sat at the heart of a UK buyer. Um, whereas if you go to different regions, different areas of the world, it feels very natural for them to have purchased Tower living for them. If we're talking central London, yeah. The majority of dents is going to be towers is very natural. Whereas Tower Living for a UK demographic is still a relatively new thing. It's like the, was the switch between house to apartment. Absolutely. Having grown up in Continental, your own apartment was kind of. The norm. Yeah. Well, renting was the norm as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so I think it, it, I think the UK market has become more open mm-hmm. To, to living in apartments in tall towers. Mm-hmm. It's now got experience of them. You've got, um, generations of people that will have experienced that post uni, you know? Yeah. And used that themselves as a form of living, but, but it has taken a while to get those people engaged in it. Um, I think obviously the, the strength of the overseas markets in those areas historically where we might have found more buyers and the, the weakness of their own domestic markets has definitely impacted us. Impacted as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we need to pivot, make sure that we're, we're educating this UK domestic market about the fantastic offer of New Build and what the offers above and beyond, um, a secondhand sale.

Adrian Strittmatter 19:48

So how do you. How do you, uh, compel people to buy? I, yeah. I almost came up with the question myself there, didn't I? I could hear it. Is that, but we're doing very well here with the segue. Is it? I have no need to ask you the question, bro. Answer that yourself, Brian. Please continue. Yeah.

Brian De'Ath 20:00

So, so I described this and have been describing it recently. Our most recent development we launched, uh, the Capstone. Mm-hmm. Uh, we launched it last October. Um, and I think buying off plan can be scary. Yeah. Uh, and it can feel like a tremendous leap of faith. Mm-hmm. I think we have historically placed, um, too much faith in people's ability to be able to look ahead, see a line drawing and go, oh, absolutely. I can see myself in there. I can see myself. You can see yourself in this drawing. Really?'cause I'm struggling. I dunno how you manage that. You're really good idea. And so, so we've done, we've, we've placed too much emphasis on that. I must say I, I mean I've been at Ballymore two years, but my experience of Ballymore Marketing Suites goes back a long, long time from, from visiting their marketing suites at the original Embassy Gardens Marketing Suite in 2011. You know, whopping Lane, London, city, island, all of these schemes, and I think the quality of their marketing suites has helped. I describe them as a time traveling. It helps me shorten the gap of a three year bill period by standing someone in a space and saying. What do you think of this? And they go, oh, this is fantastic. I love this. You go, this is your lounge? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. But is, is the ceiling height different? No. Mm-hmm. What about the openings? No. No. Those are your windows. Oh, but the kitchen, I, no, no. This is it? Is it? Yeah. How does this feel? Well, this feels super. I could live in this. Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Well, then we can make a decision. So I have to get them to a point where they feel really comfortable making decisions and know the decision they're making. Mm-hmm. I do not want them in three years time, walking into the building, opening that front door and going, disappointed. This is not what I thought I was buying. If you can narrow that gap between, um, or narrow the years between off plan and it being completed, that that's where we need to go.

Adrian Strittmatter 21:42

And then that's with regards to the product. And I think we're spot on with regards to that. How do you add elements to the narrative in terms of, you know, whether it's art, whether it's culture, whether it's storytelling, to really sort of wrap this into Yeah. As much as a house building a house, sorry, a house purchasing into a lifestyle choice.

Brian De'Ath 22:01

Yeah. So that has to be authentic. So that shouldn't be something that's pre-ordained. I wouldn't actually want anybody to recognize a BMORE development by anything visually. I wouldn't want them to look, look up I than the little logo at the bottom. Logo is fine. I would accept the logo. We all want our bit of name recognition and brand out there. Exactly. Yeah. But you shouldn't drive past the event and go up. Ballymore one. Oh, do you see that bathroom? That's a Ballymore bathroom. Why is that? Well, they buy them wholesale. They put them in their last eight developments because they've got an absolutely fantastic deal on the iron mony. No, every Ballymore development, as I've seen them historically, and the ones that I'm now involved in, look at the location, how the, how the development sits within the environment that it sits in and takes cues from that. Mm-hmm. So it responds to its environment. By responding to its environment, it feels authentic to the place. Now, whether that is transmitted through the architecture, the interior design, the amenity offer, at least you are you, you are starting from a position where it feels historically authentic. Mm-hmm. Is, is how I take it, and then it has to be true to us. So the art and the culture one I find really fascinating. Mm-hmm. Art and culture sit at the very heart of Ballymore as a business. Art is personally important to Sean. Mm-hmm. He believes that art unlocks something in people. Mm-hmm. He's a, he's a, a, a collector privately himself, but he believes that. Art should be shared with everybody. So we have public art on all of our developments. Then we have the art within the buildings themselves, and we should be communicating that story and telling them why we've chosen this art. Mm-hmm. Art isn't a bandaid. We should not be putting art on the wall.'cause there is a big plaster wall and I didn't think what was gonna put there three years ago. Yeah. So I actually don't mind if a developer is technologically at the forefront of what they do. I think that developer should focus on building the most technol technologically advanced buildings that they can. Mm-hmm. And be brilliant at that. I think we as a developer, um, have a sort of grittiness to us earthiness, where we look at the environment and the building that we're in and we try and respond to that. And then the art and the culture comes along with it. And I think that feels true to us.

Adrian Strittmatter 24:08

So, and then in terms of the storytelling as well, when, and this is maybe a, a sort of personal question, is where we sit as a, as an agency, obviously very active in the sort of the brand and the creative space around properties. When do you normally engage with people like ourselves? Is it at what point to help you find that authenticity and tell that story across then all the elements of architecture, amenity. And, and, and, and, and public space.

Brian De'Ath 24:33

Hopefully as early as possible. Mm-hmm. And I bet you would probably agree with me with saying it's never early enough. Um, perhaps you've worked with, with, with people better than people that I've worked with and, and working for. But at Ballymore, we are looking for that North Star. Mm-hmm. So for every element of what we then end up doing. On the development. Where's the, where's this little grain, this nugget, this kernel that the marketing company came up with and we fall back on it all the time. All the time. Yeah. All the time. Mm-hmm. It's like, okay, well we're doing this, but is, does that reflect what we said here? No, it doesn't. Well, let's start again. Mm-hmm. Let's try and find that if we, and those words don't actually, or, or whatever, it's an image shouldn't sit above the line. Mm-hmm. What sits above the line is, is different, but below the line. It's, it's, it's paddling away. It's doing all the hard work. Mm-hmm. And it comes across in everything we do. There's, um, there's a couple of words that sat behind everything we'd done at the capstone. Um, and it was quality felt. Now you won't see it on anything. Mm-hmm. But we knew that whatever we were producing, whatever story we were telling, whatever we quality felt, not quality scene, it was quality felt. Mm-hmm. You, it should be touching it, it should be experiencing it, it should be sitting in it. Uh, and that has, that's been our North star throughout the, uh, event of that building.

Adrian Strittmatter 25:49

I think I, I mean obviously, you know, my answer would be as early as possible, and it's never early enough, but I think it's great is getting people around the table and be able to say, okay, well this is our, if there was a story to tell, this is what it would be. And, and you're right, sometimes it's, you know, some brand pillars or values and then a kind of seminal sort of, you know, sentence that brings it all together in terms of the people that you are engaging with. Then the buyers, you know, there's a lot of talk around, you know, differences in generations and what they're looking for and how demand is changing. At the forefront of what you do is engaging with those people and talking with them and doing this kind of diagnostic that you were talking about at the beginning. Yeah. What are the big shifts you've seen with regards to demand and, and what people are looking for? We were mentioning the calculator before. What's, what's changed? Um, oh, maybe it hasn't, I dunno.

Brian De'Ath 26:36

I, I think they've, they were always fundamentals, you know? Mm-hmm. A well proportioned room is still a well proportioned room. Mm. Do not let the architecture push the internal layouts around, you know, and that happens unfortunately, all too frequently. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, something that looks absolutely amazing outside, translates into a nightmare internally. Mm-hmm. And then you're paying for it for years. Yeah. For absolutely years. It's like, um, yeah. Building debt, but it is come back to roost. Yeah. Who would've known that an orthogonal room would work and you could lay a beautiful kitchen, dining area and lounge. It is quite simple at the outset. Mm. And if we can remember those things and perhaps try and develop from the inside out as opposed to the outside in, I think, you know, we'd all make our lives a lot, lot easier. Um, I think that the change in, in the purchase a profile almost as much as anything else has changed how we sell. There's much more emotional resonance with someone buying for their own use mm-hmm. Than there is for someone buying from investment clearly. So, so they then want to see, yeah, I work Surface looks fantastic and kitchen's great Brian, and this is all fantastic. I think they understand our passion for it when we start telling some of the stories behind the materials. Mm-hmm. Or how we even arrived at it, and that sort of level of authenticity and seeing the veracity of the journey and how you got there. They get as excited as you do by that then. Mm-hmm. I always try and focus on one or two things that nobody would never. Normally focus on, and if I can tell them how we've looked at this detail, then they don't have to ask me how I've looked at the kitchen or the bathroom. Because if you looked at that with a level of detail, you'll tell you what you sweated the detail there. Yeah. I translate that onto everything. So there's um, there's a door in the marketing suite at the capstone and I'd say it's the hardest working 50 square feet of any marketing suite I've ever worked in. And I stand there like an excited puppy in front of this store and have done for about three or four months, like a Jack in the Box. Cannot wait to show people to it. Go into the beautiful lounge and the kitchens and the bathroom, and they're all...

Adrian Strittmatter 28:42

you're selling it. Well, I'm intrigued about it. Come, I'll get myself excited all again. This is a Narnia moment. Like what? This happens.

Brian De'Ath 28:47

That's exactly how I describe it. And, and we, beautiful model and we look at the view studies and we, we've got them to the point we don't, I would normally tell the sales team, please don't open this door till they know they're buying anyway. Or if you really feel they're not. Going to buy and they just need the edge. Just use this door anyway, the door always has to be shut. And you open this door and we have recreated the Lyft car from the building, and the Lyft car is just beautifully appointed. Mm-hmm. And people say, what's it? The lift. You've built the fin, you've built the lift, you beat the, you beat the car. Yeah. I'm telling you. Yeah, because I can't, men, I can't think of many occasions when I see the lift car on any of the developments I've ever worked in. I might occasionally see a little CGI with a glimpse of it. How often do I see the communal lobby or the communal floor? Lobby of the actual floor, not the ground floor. I amenity and the leisure, and I said, I'm showing you. The Lyft car, and when you bring one of your friends or family into this, they are not going to believe how beautiful this is. And yeah, it gets me excited every time. Uh, and so by telling a story that's slightly unexpected.

Adrian Strittmatter 29:50

How did you, how did you focus on the, because it's, you are right, it's, it's, it's interesting. It's these kind of much used places within the building that are part of that journey of your. Vertical and, you know, horizontal circulation on a day-to-day basis.

Brian De'Ath 30:07

Absolutely. Who, who came up with the idea for the lift then? Oh, wow. Oh God. I don't wanna be giving anyone, I mean, Sean couldn't be any more involved in this. Mm-hmm. It, it, I would say it's impossible for me to have ever seen someone of his seniority be involved on the day-to-day basis in a project of this type. Mm-hmm. This is a, when this building completes, this will have been a 21 year journey for sure. 2007. He bought his first parcel of land at Embassy Gardens, and in 21 years later, the final building will be completed. And Sean views this as a, a moment to really celebrate, you know, celebrate the development, celebrate what Ballymore has learned within that period of time, and then create something that we haven't created before. Sean. Uninterest as uninterested in anyone I've ever met in recreating his greatest hits. He will challenge himself and everyone in the business to create something new. Not for new sake, but for it to be better.

Adrian Strittmatter 31:06

So why is it so? Why is specifically, and then we'll get on more, more into detail about the capsule and Embassy Gardens. Why is. This so personally significant to the organization and to Sean.

Brian De'Ath 31:15

It it that I would say it's the 21 years. It's the 21 years, yeah. We, we have no development that has been going for that long with that level of engagement. You know, it, the profile of the development itself with the American embassy coming there mm-hmm. Has, has, you know, obviously meant that Ballymore. It almost has a stewardship and has a responsibility to the place. Yep. Mm-hmm. I walked myself, I got off the tube in Voxel in two th it must've been the end of 2010. Started walking down the lane. I think there was a Jack Barkley showroom. Mm-hmm. Um, I think it was a Bentley showroom. If I remember rightly. There was a post office and there was. Wasteland as far as the eye could see until you got to an undeveloped battery power station. And I walked down that road, I walked all the way down there, I walked all the way back. Halfway along that road was the marketing suite all on its own, this little tiny oasis. And I was shown round it by two guys that I still know now. And it was incredible to conceive that someone had the vision that they thought they could transform this area, the whole area. Yeah. Into something that people would want to live in. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, I don't have that vision. I have a very narrow mind. Mm-hmm. I can see just ahead of me. I, my focus is tremendous, but it doesn't leap that far forward and. It was to, to go from nothing to where it is now with other developers now having obviously adjoined it and created their own visions in, in that area. I think it's incredible, you know, to have the Park Hyatt Hotel opening up two 300 jars from us. Patsy's Power Station, now fully open, 2 million square feet of retail and commercial. If you'd have told Ballymore. 15 years ago that that would be the position of that place. I'm not even sure we could have believed it. So to have been there at the ground floor and see it now at its sort of zenith and completed. Yeah, yeah. It's great. It's like closing the book. So what was the vision, if you, if you, is there, is there like a a, a vision in a nutshell? A kind of saying, okay, what I, I'd be talking for? I, I wasn't there. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really hard for me to unpack. 20 years of history. Uh, I don't, I, I wouldn't be able to say mm-hmm.

Adrian Strittmatter 33:20

But the iteration of that, that continual desire to make this place into what it is today. Yeah. What was the drive behind? Just continuing to, to, to do that?

Brian De'Ath 33:32

I'm speaking for people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I, so if, if I was, if I've sat in meetings with Sean mm-hmm. It's a sense of never being satisfied. Mm-hmm. I think no matter Sean will finish this building and we will finish it and I hope it's one of the, the best buildings I've ever gone into. I'm pretty Sean. Sure. Sean will go in there and find a few things and go, ah, next time. It, next time. Smack. Yeah. Next time we'll get it right. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think some people, I've been very, very lucky enough to work with Sir George Yaku at Canary Wolf. Yep. So George was there for 35 years. He was brought over and looked at that site as Wasteland, and then his stewardship of that development means it is what? It's today. I worked for Tony Ley. Mm-hmm. I don't think Tony would've known. I worked there at the time, but I did work with him. I remember him. Yeah. He wouldn't have remembered me, I could assure you. And then Killian Hurley got Mount Anvil. Those people. Now with Sean Mul Wright, those people have a drive, which I don't think exists in many. It's not accident. They don't happen by accident, and there is a level of drive and determination to consistently better what you have done before. I'd equate it to sort of sports people, I suppose. Yeah. Why do some sports, sports people win? A couple of major. Competitions and then they're self-satisfied and that was enough. Why do others nonstop keep going back to the well and, and going and going and there's something in certain people that drives them.

Adrian Strittmatter 35:01

And do you think in this, I, I mean clearly in this market, you, you have to, otherwise, you know, you are, as you said, kind of start drawing back or exiting.

Brian De'Ath 35:08

I, I think we look at opportunity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If, so I say 3,200 homes started this year. That's a dreadful stat. Yeah. But that also means in two and a half years time, there will almost be no completions in Central London. We, we are starting schemes, we are making sure we're, we're gonna fill that void. We are making sure that we will be the number one choice in central London. Mm-hmm. At that period. We've got 16,000 homes, either with planning or going through planning. At the moment, our pipeline is, um, is secure and we're looking forward to deploying it. And circling back to the capstone, there are two things that I wanted to touch upon. One that you've already talked about, which is art.'cause I know it, it plays huge role, a huge role. How, how has, and obviously you've mentioned sort of Sean's personal interest in this. How has it become so intricate to the whole journey? I think because we knew that it was. Essential tenet of the building. We had the opportunity to create a space. Mm-hmm. Specifically in the building for art. Mm-hmm. We have a, a parlor, which is the artist parlor, which will have some permanent art. Mm-hmm. And it will then, um, host revolving exhibitions. Mm-hmm. Um, Sean's been engaged with some artists for some time now to produce art specifically for these spaces. So, you know. Eh, this isn't just buying off the shelf. Mm-hmm. This is understanding the space, the place, and then commissioning individual pieces for that space. For that space. Yeah. So when we look at our CGIs, um, and somebody goes, oh, that looks nice. Do you know what that art will be? I say, you see it on the wall there? Yeah. It will be that. You know, or we have, well, it's another story to tell, isn't it as well, of course it does. You know, Ian McLachlan, uh, Elise Ansel, we can name the artists, you know, we know who they are. They've already produced works for us, for the marketing suite, and we will have works for the actual building itself. So it was always going to be important to us and it just, um, it meant that when we are selling it, I'm selling it. The sales guys are selling it. Um, you can sell it with a real passion. Mm-hmm. This sounds corny and some people have said to me, you don't really mean that Brian, but I think I'm a terrible salesman. Mm-hmm.'cause I can't sell something I don't believe in. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'd like to say I'm quite thankful I've never put myself in that position when I've been in development. I think I've worked for some of the businesses that helped shape London, and they have produced some of the very, very best developments ever. Well. More luck. Me, I've been in that position to be able to offer that. So when I'm sitting there and saying, you will, when you move into this building, you will be, you know, just forever grateful that you made that choice, that you made that choice. I really do believe it.

Adrian Strittmatter 37:51

In terms of one question, which really, you know, revolves around, you know, the experience that you have in the building and in the common areas with regards to. Because we see it across asset classes and you know, even sometimes, well, not even sometimes now with offices and commercial real estate is regards to the am amenity philosophy. Yeah. You know how, you know, it's the, you know, London's an amazing place to live. There are amenities, you know, everywhere you look in central London in-house. Outsourced. What's the, what's the philosophy for, for you guys?

Brian De'Ath 38:21

So we generally in-house mm-hmm. We have, um, a management arm, um, Ballymore Asset Management. Mm-hmm. Um, so we manage our own states. We believe that allows us to give the very best stewardship, you know, we are responsible for it at a level. Um, the amenities themselves, we think we can offer the best management of those rather than going outside. Mm-hmm. But I'd also say we are constantly challenging ourselves. For not just adding more. This isn't an arms race. Mm-hmm. This isn't how many amenities can I get into a building? It's, well, how useful are these amenities? And we all know that. Service charges were at breaking point to a degree. Yeah. No matter how rich you are, you still want to feel, you are getting value for what you are being offered. Mm-hmm. So I don't think it's, um, per se, how expensive service charges are. It's what I get for it. And do I believe that that. Cost is value and getting value for money. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, so we haven't raced to put into the capstone things, which we don't believe. It's not a tick box. Tick box. Mm-hmm. It's not a list of specifications. And yes, I've got, I've got golf simulator, I've got cheese room, I've got wine room. I'm not saying any of those things. Aren't valuable, but we chose to believe they probably weren't valuable for the space that we had to offer. Mm-hmm. How are people gonna use this? Is this a sanctuary around, you know, is this somewhere where they can cloister themselves away from whatever's going on in their lives? Deep sigh. When you walk in concierge service, when we're talking about service levels. This isn't about me getting you a table at a three Michelin styled restaurant. That's the day to day. This is about me walking into the building and the gentleman that walks in goes, Brian, not Mr. Dth either. I think this is Brian, and that's where we'd like to get to. Brian, how are you? Weren't you traveling last week? How did it go? Oh, brilliant. No problem. Listen, we've got a few bits out back for you. What time would you like me to bring them up? That's it. It's just interest in someone's day-to-day life in as much as if they're happy for you to be interested in it and involvement in what's going on in your home and how it's going and what's happening. But it's, it's human. If it's not human, I'm not interested. You asked me an earlier question and I never got to it and I will get around to it now.'cause human is, is what I'm interested in, is there was a period 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago where developers. The tech inside of these apartments was running amok, you know? Ah, don't worry. You'll walk in the door and there's a pad. And from this single ice screen pad, you can access 57 different menus. And from those menus you can switch a light on there. You can time it to come on when you fly. Oh my God. I just wanna switch it on and off. You couldn't get, I just. I need to turn the light on. Yeah. How do I operate my heating? Mm. Can you please give me a switch? Mm. So we make a real virtue of the fact that when you walk into our apartments. You'll press a button and it will turn your lights on. Mm-hmm. Now you can preset it if you really want, but that preset will be in the cupboard somewhere. You're that way inclined. If you really, if you really are, but you will not be coming to us for the most technologically advanced, I don't think. I think that's, that's trying to cater for an audience that doesn't necessarily exist.

Adrian Strittmatter 41:29

Yeah. Probably in terms of, um, interestingly, the changing sort of. Market and the way that London is perceived globally as a sort of standard bearer of, you know, definitely in terms of Europe, in terms of quality. I mean, where do you see, where do you see the city heading in terms of residential offer? Obviously we've talked about the pipeline. Yeah. Where, where do you see, where do you see it's heading?

Brian De'Ath 41:54

I think it's a really interesting point. I have had a couple of conversations recently with some, yeah. Really great contemporaries in the business. Mm-hmm. Not, not necessarily just in bmore, but I'm saying across the industry. And it's interesting to see the arc that new build development's gone on. Lots of these large scale, huge projects have sort of reached fruition. Um, we've moved through that period potentially of peak new build in Central London, especially, you know, if you are looking for, well, where is the next King's cross? Where is the next nine Elms? Where is the land? To be able to facilitate those developments. Mm-hmm. Earl's court's probably one of the last, one of the last great developments. Mm-hmm. Um, untaxed potential. You know, we've got an absolutely magnificent site just in Labate Grove, just north of Notting Hill, you know, two and a half thousand homes. I look at that as being transformational, you know, the opportunity to deliver something like that so close to other tremendously well-regarded areas is, is. Vanishingly rare in central London. So I think we're going to have to become much more focused and more targeted.'cause I think the opportunities are becoming far less.

Adrian Strittmatter 43:06

Do you, and this is kind of completely off piece, wasn't on the list of questions at all, have you, Ballymore have, have there been retrofit. Developments in the sense that it was an office building and you guys have come in and transformed it. Because I was just thinking about the, you know, the sort of the, the stock, the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. To, to, to build new or to do. Is that something that you guys are looking at in terms of..?

Brian De'Ath 43:31

Yeah, I would absolutely say it is what we're looking at. I even in my time there, I've seen those coming through the land department. Absolutely. So the, the office to residential conversions. I'd say lots of the Central London office stock isn't necessarily fit for purpose suited. Yeah. If you go, if you go out of town and look at those sixties and seventies, the floor plates weren't the scale that they are in central London. Mm. So I think you are looking. It sounds a bit technical and it's far, uh, beyond my reach, but I'll try the, the, the skin to floor ratio works in those towers. If you look at the canary wharf towers. Yeah, exactly. And there have been some experiments of looking, can you convert those a million square foot building the windows end up being 70 feet away. From where the front door would be to make any, yeah, it's, it's an incredible challenge to be able to do it. Yeah. To do it in those, yeah, in those large scale. I think that the sort of sixties, seventies office blocks, they tended to be at narrower, skinny, didn't have the same sort of floor plates that came in in the eighties and nineties where something that was trading floors. Big, big, big spaces, open plan offices. Uh, I think the opportunity exists there, but it's not one we've come across yet.

Adrian Strittmatter 44:41

And then in terms, so touching upon something as well in, in terms of in the buyer's mind, that notion of getting value for money, price reli, price resilience, sorry. And premium values. Yeah. How, how do you, and especially in, in places like Embassy Gardens, how, how does that come across? How are people. You know, perceiving that.

Brian De'Ath 45:00

Yeah, I think, I think you address it head on, you know, because I think people need to understand the journey that the developments have been on in terms of pricing, because there's always your own secondhand product, especially in these long term projects, which is competing with you. Mm-hmm. So you are. You are consistently and constantly having to be looking at ways and means to increase the offer. What's the benefits you're going to receive in here as opposed to buying something absolutely fantastic. I only built it four years ago. I'm not going to demean my own products. Why would you buy in there, madam? It's not really as good as this. Yes, it is. It's absolutely super. It was super, women develops it. It's super now. So I think you're always looking for yes, but what we've offered in this building is. Larger apartments. Mm-hmm. The market's changed. Our average one bedroom square foot in this building would've been five 50. We were catering to a different buyer group. In here, it's 6, 7, 5. It's owner occupies. It's different uses of the spaces, you know, two bedroom flats In this building, 1100 square feet, that would've been eight 50 there. We were looking at tighter, tighter floor plants. We were looking at making sure we were maximizing every square foot, whereas now I'm saying we're looking at elbows out. How can I really luxuriate in my space? Yeah. How, how can I really enjoy it if I say to someone, yeah, but this is a fantastic offer. It's, it's great value for money. People that are buying it for their own use aren't necessarily value for money's not number one. Mm-hmm. It's definitely not number one, they know the va. They don't want to feel that they've overpaid. But they are absolutely happy for something that they think is absolutely top of its game and world class. They will absolutely pay for that. Yeah. They will take pride in the pride in the purchase as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I have bought here, mm, in its own class. One of the best things I will get. I think people are very happy to pay for that.

Adrian Strittmatter 46:45

What do you think the, is there something that the industry gets wrong about, you know, what buyers really want today? Is it sometimes you, do you feel, oh, okay, that's, you would disagree with it?

Brian De'Ath 46:56

Um, I think the amenity turned into an arms race and I think we overshot and I think we, we will, you know, be winding back in on our reels and saying we didn't need to go that far. Um, I think we saw what everybody else was doing in the industry and went, well, they've got an ice room. Where's my ice room? Yeah. What's the use of that space? How do you measure that? So we are constantly going back into our current developments and finding, yeah, property. Watching. Yeah. Yeah. What's the use? Let's click people going into the gym. How's that gym? When's it full? What time of day? Do we have enough treadmills? Did we end up putting in machinery that was never used and we didn't have enough of the normal machinery?'cause new stuff's always exciting. Oh, I need something new. Someone wants this. Well, yeah, but a lot of people just like running and getting on the bike, you know, so it's trying to make sure that we're, we're being informed by what we're actually seeing occurring, as opposed to saying, I've had another bright idea. Uh, and that's not exciting all the time. I'm totally aware of that. But, um, but I think, I think that you should be informed by what you see happening out there as well.

Adrian Strittmatter 48:04

So then on the other side, the kind of yin, what would you say the most underrated value sort of lever is in residential today?

Brian De'Ath 48:11

Oh, there, there's a few things which have come up on our surveys ourselves with our purchasers of the emergency space that you use the most, which one have you used and you weren't sure? Screening rooms and cinemas in the buildings, and that consistently comes back to us that. Comes back constantly as a good, as a good thing, a great thing as a great thing, yeah. Of, of, of a space, which they're generally, you know, interior part of a building. Don't, you don't need any skin. You're not, you're not giving up valuable real estate, if you like, for a cinema room. And the use that people get from those spaces, I think far outweighs the, that the belief that we had in them at the outset.

Adrian Strittmatter 48:47

And are they used,'cause we have this example in Dubai. Are they used. Jointly by residents? Or are they privately hired, or is it mixed scale?

Brian De'Ath 48:55

It's a scale, so that, that's exactly right. Yeah. So whe when you are coming down, if we took a room of this size mm-hmm. We could build a really nice screening room. It's. 8, 9, 10 people really beautifully. I'd say people like it for a private use. Yeah, okay. Yeah. As opposed for a communal experience. So it's getting the size right so that they and a few friends or a group within the building can hire it for their own use. We still have the communal viewing experience. Mm-hmm. You know, the managing agents. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And run that. But I think that private use for the screening room is a great one.

Adrian Strittmatter 49:26

You were mentioning in terms of London and the way it's transforming from, you know, tower living and and so on and so forth, are there markets that you guys are looking towards in terms of innovation, in terms of, as you're saying, like constantly pushing the boat out on a lever? Are there things that you look at and go like, okay, that's a really interesting trend? Well, not even trend, like Yeah, in terms of, you know, other markets that you look at.

Brian De'Ath 49:46

I don't think something that we've properly. Got hold of here in the uk and you do see it in Southeast Asia, the way they integrate greenery into their buildings. Mm. I think they're incredibly clever about how they transform the form of the building by having these green spaces at various. Junctures within the actual framework itself. So, you know, Singapore especially, I'll go there and then they'll have whole floors given over, but it's spilling down the outside of the building. It's not, it's not hermetically sealed. It's not something, it's something to be enjoyed by everyone as you walk past and you engage with it. And I think sometimes the architectural forms that we build were a bit hard as a whole. As an industry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we could look at ways to soften it that just. No. Create a landscape in and of themselves. Mm-hmm. And I think, um, it's a bit more fluidity between the in and out. Absolutely. Yeah. And balconies, people want to buy flats with balconies. Mm-hmm. If I look at how balconies are used when I go across all of our developments, am I ever seeing people all sat out on their balconies? Mm, no. They love the idea of the balcony, almost like a visual mean to tea. So they'll have their plants out there. They're viewing their plants as their, their, their in their, it's a little garden if it were, how you say? But it's a little garden they're looking out at as opposed to they're not sat out there. They're very rarely set out there. It's like the Victorian houses, isn't it? It's the front there. You know, whoever sits in the front there. Absolutely. My wife does love sitting in the front garden, but sorry, I wasn't. Um, so it's, it's looking at creating those moments for the people that are in the building. But I think just as much for those people that are engaging with our developments about how we can bring to life greenery vertically. Mm-hmm.'cause we do it tremendously well. Yeah. On the ground floor level, on the ground, completely integrated ground. I think some of the, the garden spaces that we've created on the ground floor plane are exceptional, but I think we could all work harder at bringing it upwards.

Adrian Strittmatter 51:35

So I've got two final questions for you, Ryan, if you don't mind. Have we reached the end already? We're out. We got two minutes and 38 seconds on the clock. We're doing really well. Um. If you had to sort of either, maybe not a word, but a sentence of how you could see or you would define. The future of London living, what would it be?

Brian De'Ath 51:53

I think looking at density, it needs to be looking at taller, you know? Mm-hmm. It just does, I, I, I'm very comfortable for the height to be in certain places and restrictions. I, I don't believe we should just be wholesale ripping up the planning framework, but I do think we need to be maximizing the spaces that are available to us, and I don't think. Think that should be sprawl, either. I don't think we should make places further away. Mm-hmm. I think we should be concentrating on higher. How can we have people living within this space but higher? Mm-hmm. Um, so I can see that becoming just mm-hmm. I, I think naturally that's going to happen.

Adrian Strittmatter 52:30

And because you are now a company that has built this long, long term legacy, what would be your best advice to developers to be able to sort of follow in those footsteps or in that long-term legacy creation and value creation.

Brian De'Ath 52:43

I, I think you, you, you should not be engaging in something that you're not passionate about. Mm-hmm. So find the things in your people. And you, you don't have to personally, as the chairman of the business, have to have that passion for it. I think it helps, but I think you need to find the passion points.'cause if you're not passionate about it, you just do not follow through to the same degree. It's impossible. Mm-hmm. So, you know, and that needs to then be transmitted through all levels of the business, not just, we've created a fantastic building, now we need to sell it. That's fine. You know, there are lots of companies out there doing that, but where's your point of difference? And your point of difference needs to sit inside the business and it needs to be radiating outwards. Um, so don't start with the end in mind. Start at the very beginning. Yeah. And take those things and then use that to power you forward.

Adrian Strittmatter 53:30

Perfect. Brian, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really like the journey between, you know, how to create sales team all the way to the, to to get to those seminal moments and yeah, passion is a key word and I think, uh, you've, em embodied that today. So thanks ever so much to be part of this journey as well.

Brian De'Ath 53:44

Oh, you're welcome. And listen, I I, every time before doing something like this, I'm always not sure, oh, really? Should we, and then I start talking and I feel like I could do it all day long. So look, I, I appreciate the invite and I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Adrian Strittmatter 53:55

Thanks guys so much, Brian. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for listening to Bricks and More. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a colleague or friend who would appreciate it if you're not already connect with me on LinkedIn, whether to say hello or discuss a destination real estate or hospitality project of your own. Finally, please rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Again, share the episode, connect with me on LinkedIn and rate the podcast. I'm Adrian Strip mater and I'll be back soon with the next episode.