Stewarding Icons: How Luxury Hotels Create Long-Term Value with Tareq Fontane

In this episode of Bricks & More, Adrian Strittmatter sits down with Tareq Fontane, SVP Investment Management at Kingdom Hotel Investments, to unpack what it really takes to generate long-term value in luxury hospitality.

From stewarding icons like The Savoy in London and Hôtel George V in Paris, Tareq offers a rare owner–operator perspective on how brand legacy, financial performance, governance, and guest experience must work in lockstep.

The conversation goes beyond design and prestige to explore the hard decisions behind renovations, pricing strategy, service culture, ESG, and why short-term cost cutting can quietly destroy long-term asset value. At its core, this is a masterclass in treating landmark hotels not as static assets, but as living brands that demand constant discipline, investment, and care.

Key talking points:

🏛️ Why landmark hotels require stewardship, not just asset management

📊 The delicate balance between short-term returns and long-term value creation

🛎️ How service culture and employee investment directly protect brand equity

💸 Why cutting costs in luxury hospitality can be far more expensive than it looks

🧭 What post-COVID demand shifts reveal about pricing power, experience, and time as the ultimate luxury

If you think luxury hotels are about marble, Michelin stars, and Instagram moments, this episode will challenge you to see them for what they really are: complex, high-stakes businesses where value is earned every single day.

Tareq’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tareqfontane 

Kingdom Hotel Investments: https://kingdomhotels.com/ 

Adrian’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrianstrittmatter 

Saentys: https://saentys.com/ 

Transcript

Adrian Strittmatter 0:08

Hi, I'm Adrian Strittmatter. Welcome to Bricks and More. I'm the CEO and Co-founder of Saentys, a global creative consultancy specializing in destinations real estate and the hospitality sector. Bricks More is all about exploring how to generate, unlock, and maximize real estate value. Our mission is to challenge outdated and limiting notions of how this is done. In each episode, we talk to top professionals to uncover innovative strategies that drive short. Medium and long-term gains. So if you are passionate about making real estate more valuable for more people, you're in the right place. Welcome to Bricks and More. Today we are diving into one of the most fascinating and complex corners of real estate, luxury hospitality, because landmark hotels aren't just assets. They are living brands with legacies to steward, people to inspire and financial performance to deliver. So how do you deliver investor returns? Protect iconic brand, DNA, evolve guest experiences and still future-proof, some of the most emotionally powerful assets and destinations in real estate today. So this episode is all about governance. Brand, discipline, operational excellence, and ultimately, how do you unlock long-term value in some of the world's most admired hotels? I'm thrilled to be joined by someone who sits right at the intersection of capital, brand and luxury experience. Tareq Fontane, hospitality investment executive and board member and strategic advisor at Kingdom Holdings. Tareq oversees some of the world's most iconic properties from the Savoy London to Georges V in Paris. He works where very few people do, balancing investor expectations with brand legacy, operational excellence, and long-term asset value. He also sits at board level with four Seasons, advising them on shaping global growth, governance, and the future of luxury hospitality. Tareq brings a unique 360 degree perspective on what truly drives value in hotels financially, culturally, and experientially. So let's dive straight in. Tareq, uh, welcome to Bricks More. Thank you. Good to be here. It's absolutely fascinating to have you here. We've got tons and tons of questions to ask you. The first one really is more, potentially more of a personal question, which is, you know, you've got a fascinating career. You're at the crossroads of loads of different things. How did you get where you are today? What's the, what's the journey?

Tareq Fontane 2:40

I get asked that question a lot, and I'm sure you did. I have to. I have to say I kind of stumbled into it. Okay. Um, in the, in the beginning, you know, applying to university, getting to my sort of this college application process, I didn't even think I was gonna do hospitality. I was actually applying to a standard business degree. I was gonna just study economics, like 90% of, you know, most of my friends were. And, and then I saw this program at Cornell, the hospitality program. Okay. Obviously Cornell has a reputation. Mm-hmm. I thought this could be a very interesting university to apply to, and I really liked that offering they had about this intersection of mm-hmm. Hospitality. With business. Right? Because ultimately, and now it actually, it got folded into the business school, the, the mm-hmm. Johnson Business School at Cornell. So, uh, at the time it was still independent, but, um, even though it's a hospitality program, they had this very interesting offering where they basically, you had the flexibility to choose and kind of build the degree that you wanted for yourself. Unlike our Swiss counterparts, which are generally more focused on the operational aspects of hospitality. Mm-hmm. Uh, the program that I saw there, and sure enough, that was what I, what I experienced really provided that opportunity to kind of choose mm-hmm. Where within the field of hospitality wanted to focus on. Mm-hmm. I did a minor in real estate and finance mm-hmm. And even ended up doing a year abroad at the swick of Economics. So I really kind of had a quite a broad education and undergraduate education. Mm-hmm. But I fell in love with the hospitality industry, the hotel industry. And ended up, uh, through the alumni network of Cornell, ended up with my first job in feasibility and development planning with Marriott. Mm-hmm. Okay. Which was a very interesting experience in Dubai. So I left the us I went straight out of my, after my degree to, to the UAE. And when was this, uh, where you went to? So I graduated in 2013. Okay. So from 2013 to 2015, I was with married hotels at their office in Dubai. Mm-hmm. Which was a great experience. It was just at the time when they acquired Protea Hotels, which is Okay. Gotcha. South African Hospitality company. So exciting time to be there. And then in 2015 I had this opportunity to join Kingdom. Mm-hmm. Where, where I, 10 years later here I am

Adrian Strittmatter 4:45

still there holding the fort Indeed. In terms of hospitality, and, and you're right, there is the, the, the Swiss counterpart and a really strong sort of alumni network there. What is it within hospitality that you've have been and still are attracted to? Which, which, which bit of it specifically in that Is it, is it that still gets you excited and gets you. It gets you up in the morning

Tareq Fontane 5:07

personally. Mm-hmm. Um, what I love about my job at the moment is this, um, it's, it's, I get kind of the best of both worlds in terms of, I do a lot of desktop work where I'm really crunching out numbers, working on Excel spreadsheets and doing the usual PowerPoint presentations, which, mm-hmm. They all have an objective and an end goal, and I feel like I'm doing something very valuable and interesting, but at the same time, there's a lot of field work and that field work is, you know, it has all the perks that you can imagine within hotels that there's a lot of whining and dining involved, but there's also a lot of the design aspect of hotels. Um, and I think real estate is a very, and we're on obviously a Bricks More podcast, so we might as well delve straight into it. But, um, real estate is a very interesting industry and in particular, hospitality, hotels. Mm-hmm. It's, it's the most interesting and the most complex Yeah. Real estate asset out there. Mm-hmm. In, in every sense of the term. Yeah, completely. And, and this is where I fell in love with that intersection of sort of this whole business side of it, real estate. With the hospitality angle that brings together and a lot of worlds collide within hotels. Mm-hmm. Everything from, you've got the rooms, division and operations, you've got your retail businesses. Mm-hmm. Within a lot of hotels. The f and b component, and I'm sure we're gonna talk about Yep. You know, the George San and the civilian and these hotels that we, that I'm very fortunate to work on that bring world class f and b within the same establishment where you're selling, you know, an an incredible rooms product. The legacy, the history. I mean, I could go on forever, so you guide me here.

Adrian Strittmatter 6:41

No, definitely. I think it's, I think it's a really interesting asset class in the sense that it's got that daily interaction with audiences and that requirement to consistently and constantly push the standards people will be expecting more. So I think you're absolutely right. I think it is at the forefront of. Of being able to understand what gets people, you know, what, what makes people tick. Mm-hmm. What, what makes them come there, what makes them come back there, maybe stay longer. And is why we see you're right, that a lot of the, the hospitality brands sort of now branching out, they know how to do this. So they're starting to branch out into other asset classes. Specifically about those two, as you mentioned, those two legendary hotels who've, you know, the Savoy and the how. I dunno, maybe the wrong word, but how, how scary is it to be their steward or, you know, the, the owners of these institutions. It comes with great weights,

Tareq Fontane 7:37

you know, it's a responsibility. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you, you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly how I see my role as a, as a steward ultimately of these, of these assets and within kingdom as well. And this is how we also asset manage our properties with that long term vision in mind, the legacy and the history of these assets. And I think it's, it's really balancing that, that short term financial profitability with a longer term vision for these hotels, right? Mm-hmm. And I mean, I'm sure we're gonna talk about this as well, but there's, um, this transcends everything from the design aspects, the renovations and refurbishments that we do. And we did two very large. Renovations one. We're in the middle of it at the Savoy, the George San. We just mm-hmm. I think we're literally completing, we just completed this week, um, which been year on time, on time, on budget. Oh my God. You'd be surprised. Yeah. Both actually are going very well. It happens. Yeah. So obviously requires regular, you know, uh, regular checks, regular checks, and a lot of monitoring. Mm-hmm. But these were, these are ongoing and it's, it's, it's, it's been a great, it's been a great success so far. The feedback we've gotten has been incredible. But I think it's really balancing and, and we really did a, when you, I mean I'm sure you've seen the product mm-hmm. In Paris, but it's about creating that timeless elegance, right? Mm-hmm. So really how can we modern modernize these rooms and retain that classic Yeah. Design element, the elegance. But modernizing it and really making sure that it fits the needs of the new generation of customers. Mm-hmm. That we have. Right. An example is obviously the, the light switches and the luron that te the technology needs to evolve.

Adrian Strittmatter 9:17

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 9:17

There is also the whole brim ESG energy saving aspect that we need to remain relevant and at the forefront, and especially in Europe, it's particularly important'cause there's a lot of guidelines around that. Mm-hmm. We're very proud about being at the forefront of that as well. It's important, it's about the longevity of these assets, but also, you know, providing a nod towards the, the history of these world class assets, you know? Mm-hmm. And we work, we work with world class designers, particularly at the, George Sank. We've been working with Pie since we bought the hotel in 97. He's done all of our refurbishments for us because you have that continuity in the class and the style and the design that we, that customers really value and.

Adrian Strittmatter 9:58

Yeah. And in terms of value, what would be the and value generation or, you know, continual, sort of unlocking a value within hospitality? What would you say your and Kingdom's holdings is? What is the philosophy behind it? How, what is it that guides you when you, you know, you have, you know, an asset and you want to take it from A to B. What is it that guides you? What's the, the North Star? Behind taking on and doing those projects? I think

Tareq Fontane 10:27

it's, it probably falls in line with what I mentioned previously around balancing short-term return for long-term benefit. Mm-hmm. Um, and even during these renovations, for example, we, the hotel was operational. We didn't close these assets. Oh. At that time, we had to be very pragmatic. Mm-hmm. Around. Mm-hmm. Again, the George sank is a very good example of where the, we had the Olympic games mm-hmm. Happening in Paris. Right. And we were mid renovation, so we had to really take a, a, a decision here as to how we would wanna manage and take advantage. Of, you know, a city that sold out those things. Yeah. And people wanna stay at this hotel. So we paused the renovation, we put all the rooms back into commission that were either being, you know, the, you know, where, where the contractors are based and the rooms that haven't been renovated yet, and the rooms that were already completed. So that was a very sort of pragmatic approach we took, and it, we reaped a lot of reward over that. Mm-hmm. The hotel had its best year. Ever mm-hmm. That year as a result of, of that. So in 2024. So that was a, a very, you know, uh, a, a complicated decision we had to take, but it was, it was very, you know, we got a very good reward of it. So that is just one example of where it's always about being pragmatic in a lot of situations. Um, taking that long-term view as to, okay, short-term pain for long-term gain. Mm-hmm. Often, um. And I think another aspect that is also very important that we, at least in Kingdom, we're very, um, it's, it's the approach we usually take, which is yes, we wanna focus on as owners, particularly on these, on these assets. From a real estate standpoint, you gotta focus on costs. We gotta focus on managing our margins. We wanna make sure that the asset is performing at the best as it can, but often enough. Um. The upside reward sometimes for potentially short term. Mm-hmm. Cost cutting is not worth it. Is not worth it. Sometimes we really need to take the big picture here and say, okay, reducing one staff member on front office could save ux. Mm-hmm. But providing the wrong level of service for that one client who's paying 30,000 euros a night for one of our suites will have. Compounding effects. Huge ripple effects. Huge invocations.

Adrian Strittmatter 12:51

Yeah.

Tareq Fontane 12:51

And especially at these world class hotels where customers have such a high expectation of the level of service, sometimes you gotta keep that top line. Mm-hmm. Sort of vision in mind. Keep an eye on, on the

Adrian Strittmatter 13:02

Yeah.

Tareq Fontane 13:02

You know, the fat in between, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And it's a, it's a, it's a fascinating balancing act.

Adrian Strittmatter 13:08

And do you think that's specific term. Hospitality in terms of the different levers that you have to generate long-term value. So obviously that sort of pride of place, pride of service. How do, how do you. I mean at Kingdom, are there also other asset classes that you've invested in where you see maybe there's a different pattern or a different way of specifically looking at that? You know, I mean, asset management really.

Tareq Fontane 13:31

Yeah. Um, I think hospitality is extremely unique mm-hmm. In the fact that, as I mentioned, it's a particularly complex real estate assets. You've got a lot of levers that you can use. To drive profitability. Yep. And it's a balancing act between rooms, which usually has quite a high margin and a lot of flow through. And we've noticed also the pendulum swing from occupancy to rate post COVID. So now we're really pushing high on rates. Mm-hmm. Balancing, lowering our occupancy slightly more. There is a big flow through effect to the bottom line. Yep. Mm-hmm. But then you've got your f and B department, which is never as profitable. And there is always this, you know, the, the higher end MLA rating you go or the, the harder it is to create a profit within the restaurants, but it's about positioning. Mm-hmm. And the value of the business and people wanting to stay at these establishments. For that reason. But to answer your question around, um, other real estate investments, so I work for Kingdom hospitality investments. Yeah. So our business is hospitality. It it purely hospitality. Yeah. Um, so we have an invested in other real estate classes mm-hmm. But I wouldn't think that it is as complex mm-hmm. As hospitality is because there's a lot of decisions you can take that will have a massive impact on your profitability.

Adrian Strittmatter 14:38

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 14:39

Um, and. We've, we've seen, I mean the, the example of the, even the George sank and the Savoy as well. Mm-hmm. Even at the Sey shells, usually the more luxury you go, the harder it is to create a meaningful bottom line. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think if you, again, that North Star and focusing on the top line performance and really driving rate performance, um, you will reap the benefit on the bottom line.

Adrian Strittmatter 15:03

And you're talking, uh, it's really interesting in terms of the market and the way that people are engaging and then how your sort of. Switching, not your business model, but just the way that you are approaching it have over the last, I mean, you know, I mean now what, what's it been trying to go up at five years, you know, with COVID and everything? How did you guys navigate through that period obviously of, of big change because there's pre and there's post the event. Um, people's habits have changed the way they consume pretty much everything. There's been a massive bounce back in terms of hospitality. How did you guys approach that market Uncertainty.

Tareq Fontane 15:37

Well, it was a, a period of deep uncertainty Yeah. For everyone, including ourselves. Mm-hmm. Nobody knew where the world was going. Um, but we used it as an opportunity to, as everybody else did, especially from an ownership standpoint. And we're gonna talk about the, the asset light, the operators. Mm-hmm. Uh, separately. But from an ownership standpoint, we were sitting on a debt burden. We were sitting on. Cash flows that we needed to maintain. Mm-hmm. Um, so this was a particularly challenging time for us. So it was all about pausing everything, really trying to maintain and preserve cash at the hotel level. Mm-hmm. And we used it also as an opportunity to. Do a complete and rigorous study of our cost base in each of these assets. And most, most people did that line by line. Yeah. And, and we were no different. Yeah, yeah. Honestly. Mm-hmm. And in a lot of, obviously jurisdiction, by jurisdiction, there were places where you could cut more than others. Mm-hmm. France, it's very difficult on the labor side to make any significant changes. And frankly, I'm glad we didn't because as the demand came back, we had a, you know, a labor force and our employees are. Key in providing that service that was able to really come back very quickly and we were able to really drive performance very swiftly after that. But definitely a very interesting time for, for everyone, I'm

Adrian Strittmatter 16:54

sure. Do you think post, post COVID, the hospitality market has, I think to a certain degree, I think become, you know, in a weird way, the bounce back has been quite, were you expecting such a bounce back and in the way that it, it happened? No, actually we did not.

Tareq Fontane 17:11

Mm-hmm. Um. But we noticed this pent up demand post. Everybody did, I'm sure. But we in particularly looked to leverage that as much as we could. This pent up demand where ultimately we, we were trying to test the price sensitivity of our customers and the growth and average daily rates that we were able to command was. Incredible. And we continue to drive that performance today, slightly today. Annoyed. You didn't do it before, kind. Yeah, frankly. Yeah. And, and so there has been obviously a little bit of a,'cause it's all about RevPAR, right? The occupancy by er. Why did you say about this

Adrian Strittmatter 17:48

then, though? It, that, that such, there was that pent up demand because if it was, it's, it's kind of, it was there kind of before. Is it because people really want to make the most of perhaps or whatever? Probably,

Tareq Fontane 18:03

yeah, probably. Now I would argue that there is, within luxury hotels, we have a very particularly demand, uh, customer base. Yeah, of course. Um, so unlike, you know, the middle class, for example, that perhaps was able to save up a little bit during COVID mm-hmm. And wanted to go out and spend and travel Yeah. Within that luxury segment. I don't know if it was that much around, oh, I've saved these couple of bucks that's been in hotels. I think it was more around, wow, we've noticed the fragility of life ultimately. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know, the travel is back, airline demand is back. Let's go. Let's go and get these experiences and we're willing to pay for it. But you have to provide the service that goes along with it. Yeah, and I think we've kind of reached a bit of a cap now in terms of how much more we can drive rates. Mm-hmm. Three years after COVID, you know, we're finally there where I think we're gonna see a normalization of those. We have already seen a normalization and now we just have to provide that level of service that goes with these rates. We're commanding

Adrian Strittmatter 19:00

by owning. Um, just focusing maybe on those two hotels, I know that you've got other assets, but the Jean and the Savoy and those being institutions and landmarks, I. Where does, and that, that pressure on the steward and the owner, where does it come from, you know, to be responsible for, you know, do you have, I don't know, public perception, you know, in terms of the way that people see, oh, they're doing a really good job over there. Or, I mean, where does the pressure come from? Where do you see the press lines coming from? Or people looking at what you guys are doing? I mean, um,

Tareq Fontane 19:34

it's a good question. It's probably everything from, you know. Are we maintaining our hotels? Mm-hmm. Are we thinking outside the box in terms of design? Are we continuing to push the limits in terms of creativity? But a lot of it is, is it, is all, it all comes down to service ultimately. I mean, what is the, when you think of the, one of the great stays that you've had in a hotel, I mean, I can ask you the question. Mm-hmm. What is it you remember most from your stay? Is it really gonna be the marble in the bathroom or the particularly large bed, or a very cool design? And it's probably gonna be. That employee made me feel very special. Mm. He did a particular gesture that went above and beyond. And when you think four Seasons, that's what most people, every time I ask, the first thing that comes back to me is the level of service is phenomenal. Mm. And it really sets them apart from the competition. Um,

Adrian Strittmatter 20:27

no, completely. It's that sometimes it's one, I would say it's sort of 85, 90% down to the service. And then down to what I would say, this is obviously quite personal, but like the, the surprises that you might get through an f and b concept or some of the, even some of the circulate, some of the design, but that's a bit geeky, right? Some of the circulations where you just pop out someone and go, oh, this is, this is funny. This is, so hotels become a kind of ecosystem and you walk around it and you go like, okay, that's really interesting the way that they've managed the flows. You know? Yeah. You kind of, you know, conveniently ended up at the bar, you know, sort of. You know, so like, oh, that's clever. It's like, you know, a very, very good Ikea with the arrows, you know, it is just like, I guess I have to take that martini, huh? Yeah, exactly. Oh, here we go again. No, exactly. So I think, but you're right, the services there, and I think that brings this, you know, great segue by the way, brings us to the, um, to the, to the Four Seasons piece and around, you know, that, that intersection again between owning these, you know, institutions, I mean they're institutions and there's a big responsibility with that, but also sitting on the board of Four Seasons. Mm-hmm. How does, how does. How does that work in terms of, you know, the, the day-to-day understanding and, and, and well, and I mean, just the, the window that it gives you into how these things function on a day-to-day basis.

Tareq Fontane 21:39

Absolutely. And I think we're in a, we're very uniquely positioned mm-hmm. At Kingdom from that standpoint, because most investors, it's, we're looking either at, at the big REITs that invest primarily in real estate or, Hmm. The Black Stones that acquire Hilton. You know, there's, there's kind of both sides of the equation, but it's rare to see, um, a company like Kingdom that invest in both. Right. And it provides us a very unique perspective of wearing both hats, right? So we've got the ownership side of our hotels and being able to sit on the board of Four Seasons in this case and getting a perspective from the operator. It's, it's great to see, and every time we, you know, have big strategic decisions that need to be made, or questions that we feel go beyond the property where we feel we, we see a lot at the property level. So it gives us very good insights mm-hmm. In terms of what's happening on the ground, what are our customers saying? Are the financial systems working properly? Are we really pushing everything we can on tech, ai, et cetera. Mm-hmm. But, and, and that filters up then. When we set up the board of these companies, in this case of Four Seasons, where it really gives us a very good perspective. We can really provide some interesting feedback and commentary as to the direction we're taking. And it goes also vice versa. The other way around, right? Where, you know, a global operator like Four Seasons and where there's so much we're working on. At the Four Seasons levels from, as you mentioned previously, not just hotels, we're doubling down big on resi now, brand

Adrian Strittmatter 23:10

Resis, we have the yachts launching

Tareq Fontane 23:12

early next year. Um, the Four Seasons Jet of course. So there is, there's a lot going on. The experiences side as well is something we're pushing a lot on as well. We want to make sure. But that's, again, a very good example of where as a company for seasons is very aware of what customers are looking for these days

Adrian Strittmatter 23:29

every

Tareq Fontane 23:30

day, but ultimately, who's gonna deliver on that? The hotels. Mm-hmm. Right. The individual hotels. And so we have the, we're lucky in this case with our hotel in Paris to provide, it's, it's basically an incubator on pushing on. A lot of you know these, let's try that. Yeah, let's try this. Let's try that. Let's, you know, what are we doing on wellness? What are we doing on this? The f and b concepts. ESG, we pushed very hard'cause we feel like it's very important and we want to be a beacon where other owners of Four Seasons hotels would perhaps wanna take an example on us. So we need to lead by example. Yeah, that's really good. And so it's really interesting to, to see both sides of that equation

Adrian Strittmatter 24:06

in terms of the operator then again, sort of four seasons. Um, how, what is it that. Maybe one or two sort of like cool anecdotes that they might have maybe filtered through in hotels where you go, okay, there's a change in. Behavior here, or you know, maybe it is around the f and b and how it works and how it links to the hotel. What is it that, that you've kind of, you know, from those meetings, any cool sort of anecdotes or things that have come back up. Oh, okay. That's interesting. Is this something new? Or just someone doing something? Just different anecdotes from specific properties. Mm-hmm. Within four seasons that kind of went up to the kind of filtered up and you, they're like, oh, okay. That's interesting to, for them to,'cause I, I've always found sometimes you get these kind of standout moments. In operations or in things, and you kind of, it happens once and they're like, okay, that's interesting. And then 1, 2, 3. And then you go like, okay, is something, is something actually, and it could be like the, you know, the, the part of revenue of f and b going slightly up or you know, just, oh, there's a blip a month. It's really high. Why was it high there? Anything like that that you know,'cause as you said, you're at the forefront. With, you know, with the operations Four Seasons, having people walking through those hotel doors and other, other destinations day by day. Mm-hmm. Is there anything that's kind of, that struck you as like that Oh, okay. That's interesting.

Tareq Fontane 25:16

Um, I mean, that's a broad question, right? Mm-hmm. There is so much going on globally within the, you know, we have 140 hotels now around the world, right? Yeah. So there's always. And we have our regular updates at the board where we see, you know, what are the different hotels doing and how are they performing. I think what's fascinating as well is, is the fact that because we have such a broad geographic base

Adrian Strittmatter 25:35

Yeah.

Tareq Fontane 25:37

It's a great hedge in terms of performance as well. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes one region is gonna, the Middle East crisis, for example. Mm-hmm. Right. That impacted most of our hotels in the region. It wasn't very limited to one area, but there is a fear all of a sudden Middle East, you know, for the North American business. Middle East is, you know, we can't go anymore. Mm. It's global. It's just the whole region. Yeah. Yeah. It affects all the countries so that the demand patterns shift quite dramatically, but that demand shifts elsewhere. And if you have a captive audience, which is what we really try to do, and when you have a, a legacy in a brand such as for seasons, it's about getting that repeat customer. And we have very loyal customers within the business. They will shift to their man to other hotels around the world. So. Overall, we've been quite lucky to be able to hedge a lot of these demand shifts and patterns. Hawaii is another example. You know, these hotels are some of our best performing assets in the portfolio, but then we got hit with these wildfires. Mm-hmm. We had a fund that was put in place to help. And so even though we might see a little blip in demand, we immediately jumped to see. Okay. And this is something that also struck me as well at Four Seasons, is how much they value their employees and their staff. Mm-hmm. The famous Golden Rule of Four Seasons. Lazy, sharp. And so the, the first thing that whenever there's a crisis somewhere that we don't even talk immediately about, oh, what is the impact on performance? Yeah. Yeah. The first thing we say is, okay, what can we do for our employees? What can you do for employees? Is everyone safe? Can we create a heart, uh, you know, a fund for mm-hmm. For helping the, um, our employees? And so that was something that I also noticed. That is very, you know, it's, it's a great initiative and it just goes to show how. How important culture is mm-hmm. In any business.

Adrian Strittmatter 27:15

Well, I think then, you know, it's, it is really also through valuing the employees. You also, you know, and the staff members. They become, and going back to that level of service, they become the ambassadors. Mm-hmm. The daily ambassadors of the brand, of the destination and the guests that they're sort of helping and servicing across the day. There's something that. I find interesting with brands and destinations, and we talked about how, you know, you bring, you know, both the Savoy and the, to up to standard or up to level or continue working on constant improvements in terms of a brand like Four Seasons, and it's something that we've been focusing on quite a lot. How, how do you also make sure that that brand is, becomes transgenerational? That it doesn't, it doesn't become, oh. So, or you know, that's my, and there are so many choices now, aren't there? So how, how is that on at a property level, but at a brand level, like four Seasons? How, how do the, how do you guys look at that in terms of the clientele? As you said, you've got very sort of, you know,

Tareq Fontane 28:21

it's a great question on some guests. Yeah, it's a great question and it's a, a lot of people would, I'm looking forward probably hearing my answer to that'cause it is. It is incredible to see how, in particular, four Seasons has been able to continuously mm-hmm. I wouldn't even say reinvent itself, but to remain timeless and to remain the go-to brand. And relevant. Yeah. And relevant. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's, it's, it's incredible. And I think it comes down to incredible top line management. Mm-hmm. And governance at the board level. Everything. I mean, ever since Izzy the founder, launched Four Seasons, it's been. His management style and his ethos has transcended the different cycles of management within the business. And I think that is what is a key differentiator. And so that trickles down. It's, again, it comes down to culture that has trickled down throughout the business, and it's about creating that special experience for guests. It's about creating timeless modems. Mm-hmm. And it goes beyond the walls of a hotel. Mm-hmm. And it, and it's, and it's so much more than that. So even though we might have a few hotels around the world that are getting old mm-hmm. That need a renovation and that might not be at the standard that it needs to be.

Adrian Strittmatter 29:38

Yep.

Tareq Fontane 29:39

As a business, we need. Reach a point sometimes where we need to take tough decisions to say, okay, if it, if, if, if certain hotels are becoming true brand tractors mm-hmm. Well we need to take an executive decision to perhaps, you know, def flag a hotel. Yep. If it's no longer up to the standard of what our customers would expect or continue to work mm-hmm. With our different owners around the world to make sure that they continue to maintain these at the standard. But that is the product. But the one thing that remains constant is the culture of the. Of the company and providing that, that extra touch and that service and, and that is something that is, it takes, you know, we, we, we value very much from a people side, the time we put into

Adrian Strittmatter 30:23

Yeah.

Tareq Fontane 30:23

For seizing, so to speak mm-hmm. Our employees and, and they're, you know, they, they are, they are what creates the, the difference,

Adrian Strittmatter 30:32

the, the, the difference in the market. Absolutely. Yeah. In terms of then that, you mentioned something that I find interesting because you, that this is where I think. You know, you are really at that intersection because you mentioned, you know, the relationship as the opera still staying within the operator to space like that you have with owners, you know, um, as the o in this instance, as the operator. How is that relationship? How does it, how does it work? You know, one would, you know, one would kind of think, oh, well, you know, obviously they want to modernize their hotel. Obviously they want to remain, you know, they don't want to be, like you mentioned, I've never heard that. I quite like it de flagged. Um, you know, you don't want that. But how does. You are also an owner, so I'm just wondering like, you know, look, look, I'm an owner. You'd be a little bit more like us. Yeah. How does that, how does that relationship work? Well, look,

Tareq Fontane 31:16

not every owner, uh, has the same vision that we do.

Adrian Strittmatter 31:20

It's a very diplomatic

Tareq Fontane 31:21

Yeah. So, um, you know, there the people have different management styles and in some cases there is not, there isn't always the same alignment in terms of. The end goal here. Mm-hmm. Sometimes there is a bit more focus on short term, you know, performance. Yeah. Or sometimes a good example would be, well, if hotel is performing very, very well, but it's getting really dated and worn out, well, there isn't always that incentive or vision to say Okay. Let's put in more money. Well, why should we right now? You know, why don't we just milk this thing? And,

Adrian Strittmatter 31:52

you know, we kind of, yeah. Don't, what is it? Don't fix it if it ain't broker. Yeah. So this is where

Tareq Fontane 31:56

aligning with the operator is extremely important. And there is, there is a, a heightened sense of, of, you know, a, a renewed focus, so to speak, from, from the operator side now to really continue managing those owner relations. Mm-hmm. And communicating the strategy and trying to, you know, explain. How to achieve long-term benefit for, you know, short-term potential. So there, it, it's, it's a real balancing act. Um, I would argue the, the relationship we have with our owners is extremely strong. Mm-hmm. I'm speaking from a four seasons perspective. Yeah. Of course. Some of our owners are devoted for seasons. Loyal, you know, um, they just love the brand. They just love the brand. Yeah. And. There's a huge advantage there because many owners that we work with are interested in developing new for seasons with us, and this provides us with this incredible pipeline of owners that we like to work with mm-hmm. That we trust because we have to sign with the, the right owners around the world. Yeah, of course. Just about, you know, when you have a pipeline, especially at this luxury level mm-hmm. Um, it's very important to, for us to, to really work with the, the right owners who have the same vision. And considering the length of the management contracts we have at Four Seasons, which are the longest they in the industry. Yeah. What they, on average, they go up to 80 years.

Adrian Strittmatter 33:10

This is quite long. So this is a partnership.

Tareq Fontane 33:12

Yeah. There's a profitable over a lifetime, right. Yeah. So I think the generation,

Adrian Strittmatter 33:15

well, even generational. Generational, yeah. The, so it's

Tareq Fontane 33:17

extremely important to partner with, the right owners, align on the vision. And have that continuous exchange to make sure that both owner and operator are satisfied with the outcome. And, you know, from the, for the owner's perspective, obviously it's performance. Mm-hmm. It's prestige, it's standing, you know, he doesn't wanna get negative comments about his, the performance of his hotel. And from the Four Seasons angle, it's about, you know, um, getting the appropriate investment where, where it's needed. And, and making sure that, yeah. That, that we provide the longevity of the, because the value for Four Seasons as a business for an asset light business like Four Seasons is in the management contracts that we sign. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. We don't own the bricks and and mortar, right?

Adrian Strittmatter 34:03

No. Yeah. In terms of, there's always that, that, there's always that balance isn't there? Also about growth and keeping that level of exclusivity and uniqueness geographically. Where do you guys, again, with four Seasons, where do you see those and, and you're mentioning other products that are coming out or are coming, have come out, but where do you see there still to be growth? Where, where do you still want to sort of plant flags across the world where you see it's untapped

Tareq Fontane 34:32

plant flags? You're using my, uh, words. I am,

Adrian Strittmatter 34:34

I am. I'm keeping them for after de flag plant flags. Very flag orientation. Yeah, exactly.

Tareq Fontane 34:41

Exactly. I mean, look, obviously we're, you know, I've worked for a Saudi Arabia company. Mm-hmm. Saudi Arabia is the first country that comes to my mind, where we have a massive pipeline. Yeah. Um, most of them are already sort of in advanced stages of negotiations. So I think it's, we have a, a, we'd like to create, well, there's a new, you know, move now within four seasons where we like to create these so-called country portfolios.

Adrian Strittmatter 35:03

Hmm.

Tareq Fontane 35:04

So Italy, for example, we're signing quite a few new deals, and we might end up in a position where we have seven, eight hotels within the same country. Okay. And that creates some unique opportunities to say, Hey, why don't you create a journey? Yeah, outta your hotel state, you know, and especially that's super cool at this level of luxury. It goes beyond just, oh, I need a place to put my head to rest. It's about. I want to go to this destination. Mm-hmm. Let's make a trip out of it in Italy.

Adrian Strittmatter 35:27

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 35:27

We can leverage this with the yacht and the jet, et cetera, to take people from one hotel to the next.

Adrian Strittmatter 35:31

But you've got that consistency, ease, you've of, youve got this consistency, you know what you're getting and

Tareq Fontane 35:35

they wanna stay at for season, so let's provide them with the opportunity to do so. So these country collections is a very interesting phenomenon and, and there is a lot more of that to come, most likely. So Saudi Arabia, middle East, continues to be a focus area for us. Um, you know, in Southeast Asia, Latin America, I would argue is, is a place where we probably would want to have more presence. Um, north America, we have a lot that that's where the company started. Mm-hmm. So we have a, a large portfolio of hotels, but even there, there's a lot of opportunities within certain pockets within the country that are less on these sort of big box res, you know, um, city hotels or beachfront hotels to perhaps more sort of slightly smaller sized hotels. In unique destinations around, around the world. Mm-hmm. Where that's what the customer's asking and looking for. The challenge is to make sure that the business model makes sense.

Adrian Strittmatter 36:27

Yeah, I was gonna say,'cause you've got the, yeah.

Tareq Fontane 36:29

At one point, if you go below 40, 50 rooms, fees Yeah, yeah. At that luxury level where you have to have a certain staffing,

Adrian Strittmatter 36:35

I was gonna say you've got two staff members per room. Kind of this like,

Tareq Fontane 36:38

it's, it's, it's, it's it, the business model needs to make sense. And where it could make sense potentially is, is again, in these country collections where you could potentially have one hotel with another one an hour away. Somewhere on the mountain.

Adrian Strittmatter 36:51

Yeah.

Tareq Fontane 36:52

And Jeev is actually in, in France is a good example where we have a lot of shared services going on with Tina hotels to provide, you know, especially if it's a seasonal demand. Yeah, right. You can't have a fixed labor force that you're No. That has sitting in these hotels. So yeah, it's very interesting. There is, it's a very interesting trend, but, um, the customer asks and we need to provide. Mm-hmm. And, and this is to answer your previous question, we need to continue to follow those trends. And, and this is definitely a trend, this experiential travel to destinations.

Adrian Strittmatter 37:23

And then within the asset itself, I mean, maybe jumping back to put your sort of, you know, o hotel owner hat on the link I've always find interesting. So like hospitality is not just obviously about hotels. It you have that component of experiential on the ground floor elsewhere with wellness, with f and b and dining. How are you seeing the f and b and dining and potentially even retail or wellness component becoming more of a decision factor in where people would choose to stay and going like, nah, maybe not there because it hasn't got this, this, this, in terms of creating that ecosystem and that synergy between the asset classes within that destination.

Tareq Fontane 38:09

Um, I think the short answer is yes. Mm-hmm. Um, it's definitely something that customers are looking for in terms of, okay, I wanna stay at this property because it has, you know, this world class f and b offering. I think I see a trend in the future where. Wellness is definitely a big topic. Um, my generation and the generation below me, it's something that's becoming, and even above, frankly, across the board, it's become For different reasons. Right? For different reasons perhaps. Yeah. But it's all about, you know, we're entering a stage now, we're getting more and more information about our bodies and you know, everything from epigenetics to biohacking. Something where I see there is another yet exciting intersection between hospitality and that space.

Adrian Strittmatter 38:48

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 38:48

Where a lot of customers these days, you know, it's, it's, it's something they expect to have proper spa facilities.

Adrian Strittmatter 38:54

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 38:55

And if anything, they're probably going to come to expect more and more in terms of not just, you know, sit in some five meter pool and get a good massage. It goes beyond, well, where can I swim my laps or. Do I have the proper machines in the gym?

Adrian Strittmatter 39:09

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 39:09

To potentially even, you know, getting that augmented level of service in the realm of, you know, we're not gonna go to. The realm of, you know, uh, so, so to breaking skin, so to speak. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, this is, you know, the blood, uh, analysis and stuff like that. We wouldn't go into that space. Yeah. Have clean for this. Yeah. But potentially there's partnerships that can be done there, right? Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we are open and pragmatic to that, both at the operator level as well as the hotel owner, as an owner. Yeah. I think we need to be, it's always about pushing that needle and really thinking about how can we continue to mm-hmm. To continuous X. It's not about you can buy a luxury hotel. And expect it to run itself and remain relevant, right? We have to continue rethinking what is it that our customers are looking for? What is it that makes this hotel special? F and b is another example of work. Maintaining your Michelin stars isn't a given. No, definitely. Right? It's a continuous effort. It's continuous work. Providing the space that these chefs work in is also a priority for us. And we invest and we put, you know, we put the money where our

Adrian Strittmatter 40:11

mouth is. So. And in terms of, um, investors there, what would you say is the, it's like one of the biggest misconceptions that some investors could have about owning or investing in a luxury hotel. It's like, oh, you guys are so lucky you've got this. Maybe what Sue was saying, like, I think it's what was saying, don't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was, I was saying it's

Tareq Fontane 40:31

about, it's about being Exactly, it's, it's, it's, we can't just sit on our laurels and expect these, these things to around themselves. Mm-hmm. And it's not just about the product itself, which is what I was speaking about. It's also about the market that is evolving, you know, and we've got a lot of competitors out there that are trying to. Beat us at what we do. Um, most of the times we, we, we, you know, it's, it's a welcoming development because that means that it becoming a more and more at attract attractive destination for luxury travelers. So it's not always a bad thing when there's new properties coming into a market. Mm-hmm.'cause it creates this ecosystem of, I mean, London isn't a good example'cause we always had world class luxury hotels. Paris is similar. Um, s she's is different. Mm-hmm. Yeah. S shell's, you know, we have the, that opened on in Baja Island, for example. Mm-hmm. This could be a benefit in terms of air travel accessibility. Mm-hmm. Getting more customers to these destinations, putting it, you know, creating visibility on the map. So, and we're doing another renovation actually at the, at the sey shells. So, um, yeah, there is a lot of moving pieces and I think it's, it's really about this is what I do, this is my job, right. That, that it's a full-time job to continue monitoring, you know, macro and micro. Level, you know, how can we keep pushing the needle?

Adrian Strittmatter 41:44

I'm looking at, you're right, looking at those different generations, how they engage with properties. You know, even, you know, we're, we're seeing it on across asset class, you know, what is the length of stay? You know, is it shorter, is it longer? You know, and then those geographic trends. So if you take off one, maybe one of my final questions for you, if you take off all your hats, I'm just talking to Tareq. Um, what has been your favorite. Hospitality experience or hotel doesn't need to be one year guys zone. And you go like, okay. That was, yeah, that was pretty insane. I actually have two. Oh, okay.

Tareq Fontane 42:20

Um, I'll start with the first, which is a very quick anecdote, but when I first started working at Kingdom and I first traveled to our Paris property, the first, mm-hmm. The second example is gonna be a different one that we don't own, but the first one. It was at the George V and I remember clearly, um, traveling there for work. Mm-hmm. Leaving one of my white shirts on the bed, so white on white, packing my suitcase and leaving. Didn't even know I forgot it. I think I traveled, what was it, four months later to the hotel, checking into the room, opened the closet, and there it was. My white shirt is there, washed, ironed with a little letter saying, Mr. Fonti forgot your shirt last time. Here you go, kind of thing.

Adrian Strittmatter 43:04

That's good.

Tareq Fontane 43:04

And that was just, I'm never gonna forget that experience. Mm-hmm. Because the level of service and the attention to detail is just mind boggling.

Adrian Strittmatter 43:12

What did you do with it? What does it mean? I mean, yeah.

Tareq Fontane 43:14

And, and it's just, it's, it's, these are the things that stick with your, you know, with you. Right. The other one is that it's quite a funny one. And my, my, my partner's gonna laugh at this one actually because I was just starting to date her at the time. And we traveled to, I had a work trip mm-hmm. Up in San Francisco. And then I went to a wedding in Mexico and we decided to stay at, uh, this property called Na Viva, which is a, for seasons out bost, near Punta. Um. That is a very experiential mm-hmm. As I was mentioning earlier about these for seasons kind of venturing into, similar to the tent camp in Shanghai. Mm-hmm. So this is just like 14 semi tented, um, you know, uh, residences, so to speak. In a beautiful part of Mexico and it's, it's on the beach and it's gorgeous. And so the experience is already extremely boutique and special. Mm-hmm. Every night the chef cooks something different. And the staff wanted to go above and beyond. Maybe because it's me or maybe not, I don't know, hopefully to do it for everybody, but they were like, Mr. Fontine, we wanna do something special for dinner. We don't want you to sit with everybody else. We want to, you know, we'll, we'll create a nice dinner experience for you. And they pick us up in the buggy and we go and they told us, okay, this is the restaurant, but please follow us here. And we, and we get to the staircase, down to this beautiful private beach. Mm-hmm. And we walked down the stairs. It was candle lit. We see that they set up this table on the beach with like, I mean there was a whole thing, right? With thees? Yeah. The drapes I saw even on his little phone, he had like romantic music playing. Um, there was staff down there, there was staff everywhere. And then they even cherry on the cake and I looked then in the sand, I'm literally on the beach and they, they put this massive heart in the sand.

Adrian Strittmatter 45:04

Mm-hmm.

Tareq Fontane 45:05

And put like a C plus T Kalan plus tarric. And I'm like, I'm, I'm seeing danger. Just like, oh my God. Like, what's happening? Yeah. And she was like, are you kidding me right now? Like, what is happening? And it's been three months. Like, what are you doing?

Adrian Strittmatter 45:18

That's what I was going, I like, oh, and I told her,

Tareq Fontane 45:20

I swear I have nothing to do with this. This is the team going above and beyond and trying to create something special. Thanks guys. But I thought that was incredible. Yeah. Um, that is cool. It was, it was really a very special experience. Obviously. That's an example of maybe it went a little bit too far, but it was funny. It was beautiful. Well, that is good. It was very memorable. And it was an extremely, uh, cool experience. So there's a lot of those anecdotes within, within this industry. It's fun.

Adrian Strittmatter 45:44

Definitely. So still, maybe as we say, still, there's still value to be gained in hospitality and lessons to be learned. Absolutely.

Tareq Fontane 45:53

It's an exciting

Adrian Strittmatter 45:53

time for

Tareq Fontane 45:54

hospitality. Mm-hmm. You know, travel people are gonna continue traveling. Um, I think if anything, you're gonna continue traveling more and more. I would say that is, is time is everything. You know, it's, it's a cliche to say time is money. People are moving beyond, um, a lot of the material goods that are arguably replaceable. And you can arguably keep buying that more and more expensive thing. The one thing you can't replace is time. And so we really need to make sure that we don't waste our customers time, provide a very seamless experience, but provide experiences that are memorable and, and that you feel like you've really used your time wisely. And, um, and I think that's that's key. Perfect. Okay.

Adrian Strittmatter 46:32

Thanks there so much. It's been a thank you very much riveting, a riveting episode and uh, it's been pleasure. Yeah, it's great to have me on show, my first podcast. This is fun. Your first podcast. Indeed. It is. You did extremely well. You're a natural. More to come. Thank you very much. Thanks Thanks for listening to Bricks and More. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a colleague, your friends who would appreciate it. If you're not already connect with me on LinkedIn, whether to say hello or discuss a destination real estate or hospitality project of your own. Finally, please rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Again, share the episode, connect with me on LinkedIn and rate the podcast. I'm Adrian Strittmatter and I'll be back soon with the next episode.