Bricks & More: Unlocking Real Estate Value

Strategy, Value & Growth: The unstoppable rise of branded residential with Rico Picenoni

• Adrian Strittmatter • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this episode of Bricks & More, Adrian Strittmatter speaks with Rico Picenoni – a hospitality leader who’s shaped over 500 hospitality and real estate projects globally.

Together, they unpack what really drives long-term value in branded residences, and why the future of real estate lies in smart partnerships, local market knowledge, and global brand power. 

Rico brings the kind of depth that only comes from two decades of navigating $34 billion worth of real estate – offering razor-sharp insights into a rapidly evolving sector.

Key talking points:

🏙️ Why operator selection and brand alignment are the secret weapons of value creation

📈 How Dubai and Miami became innovation labs for branded residences – and what emerging markets can learn

🧠 The biggest mistake developers make (and how to avoid it by asking the right questions early)

🌍 Why the future of branded resi value includes ESG, wellness, and globally connected benefits programmes

💡 Why curiosity, not certainty, is the most powerful mindset in real estate development today

Whether you’re a developer, investor, or brand eyeing a move into real estate, this episode delivers a masterclass in what it takes to create enduring value – from the ground up.

Rico’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ricopicenoni 

Savills UK: https://www.savills.co.uk/central-london/


Adrian’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrianstrittmatter 

Saentys: https://saentys.com/ 


Adrian Strittmatter:

Successful, engaging, long lasting luxury hotels and branded residences don't just happen. They're the results of strategic site selection, brand partnerships, and expert planning. In this episode of Bricks More, we explore how to maximize real estate value through operator selection and partnerships. But also how investors' priorities are shifting and where the next big opportunities lie. I am thrilled to welcome Rico Picenoni, international hospitality leader and executive board member with over two decades of involvement in a staggering 500 hospitality and real estate projects supporting 34 billion US dollars of real estate. Educated with a degree in hospitality and business management from the renowned École hôtelière de Lausanne, with a further education in real estate and asset management, he supports developers and operators globally with branded residential planning and development. So let's dive straight in. Hi Rico. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Bricks More. the first question I'd like to ask you is obviously quite a personal one. It's how were you drawn to real estate? Apart from your studies, obviously, which kind of put you on the, on, on those tracks, if it were, what is it that drew you to luxury, lifestyle, hospitality, and branded residences?

Rico Picenoni:

So thanks Adrian, first of all for welcome. Having me on the show, I feel very welcomed. To, to answer your question, lifestyle and travel mm-hmm. Is what drew me into this space, and I guess I was probably a little bit privileged in that where I studied there was the option to go into more business management as opposed to hotel management. Statistically, and I don't know the numbers now off the top of my head, but a small percentage, a relatively small percentage of students who graduate from the university in Lausanne go on to hotel operations. Within 10 years, that number, that number dwindles. So a lot of my colleagues are in development, in real estate, in banking, in finance, in some of them are hotels, of course. Mm-hmm. But what drew me in was, was the lifestyle of travel and the lifestyle of, hotels and branded residences, which is, which is what we are focused on right now, branded residences is a derivative of the hotel industry. Yeah. And so it was a natural progression. It, it, it made sense to, to evolve my career into this relatively niche space. And there's something that's exciting about licensing, what you know are powerful brands in many cases. Less powerful brands in other cases to residential developments. And it's something, there's something about the posterity of, 15 or 20 years from now saying, I, I was involved in that project to whichever degree, whether you are on the developer side or the operator side, or the brand side or the consultant side. I think, I think there's something special about that.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Hmm. I mean, that's an answer that I mean, including myself. A lot of people active in real estate would say is that you have this ability to become a kind of tour guide of your own portfolio or your own track

Rico Picenoni:

Yeah.

Adrian Strittmatter:

you mentioned lifestyle. Sort of travel and obviously the alumni of the École hôtelière de Lausanne is, is is very vast and you are now, active across a lot of different markets. Which would you say, for you at the moment is the most innovative market when it comes to sort of hotel and hospitality concepts at the moment, or the most daring maybe?

Rico Picenoni:

I'd have to say Dubai. Mm-hmm. What, what they're doing there is very much exciting and new and, and like you said, innovative for branded residences specifically dubai is the number one market globally followed, I would say closely, but in reality it's maybe double of what's happening in South Florida

Adrian Strittmatter:

Okay.

Rico Picenoni:

and. So if you're looking for innovative, you're probably going to look at Dubai, Miami, where the market has established itself very well, and then developers and brands can start becoming a little bit more creative. Hmm. So these two markets, because of how tried and tested they are, they can now push the envelope and with that said, what's exciting, maybe not innovative. What's exciting are, are emerging markets. So you have destinations like Japan, like Korea, and, and these can be exciting as well, perhaps because of the metropolitan. Mm-hmm. Feel. Yeah.

Adrian Strittmatter:

yep.

Rico Picenoni:

And culturally they are certainly very interesting from, from that perspective. And so, it depends what you're looking at. Are you looking at innovative or exciting? And from an innovation perspective, definitely Dubai and Miami.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And what would you say, obviously, again, looking at that global footprint, what would you say if there is one? A sort of common denominator of success would be that you see time and time and again within the, the kind of formula to say, yep, this is gonna work. Or there's that one denominator that makes it stand out.

Rico Picenoni:

I think it's the brand.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Hmm.

Rico Picenoni:

The brand or the operator, what have you. So the operators have within their portfolio, sometimes 30 to 40 brands. And the common denominator, not that it's necessarily one brand specifically, you have your super active brands. They're doing maybe 85, 90 projects or have done rather 85 to 90 projects. It's not one brand that's the common denominator, but it's certainly the brand.

Adrian Strittmatter:

That would be the, the success driver. The last couple of years, I mean, across the kind of real estate gambit have been quite challenging, I think from a, fluidity funding perspective, multiple crises. How are you feeling about 2025 at the moment? Positive, upbeat, wobbly thumb in the middle.

Rico Picenoni:

I'm, Adrian, I'm always positive. I think, I think cautiously, cautiously optimistic. Okay. I, so what we do from a consultancy perspective, and certainly what developers do from a development perspective, and for that matter, brands and operators as well in development, you're contemplating a future that's two to three years away. Hmm. If we're talking about now, whatever, the state of the economy now is not what necessarily drives development, so we need to be cautiously optimistic because we're, we're contemplating a future that is 2, 3, 4, sometimes five years in, in, in the future. And so and so we're optimistic.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And then when you assess, as you said, you have to project yourself within whatever the development timeline is, but when you go down on site, how do you evaluate? What is the right site? What is the right brand to pair with that site? What are your list of metrics that you'll be looking at to select the site, but then also pair it up with a potential operator.

Rico Picenoni:

market research is number one, and I think honestly, market research is probably the most important one. And, and I say market research, but it's relatively comprehensive. Within the constraints of what a development site is zoned for what permits it has, what permissions it has. Planning permissions, development permissions, building permissions within, within that constraint. If you're doing market research, then that that's what's. Going to be the tried and true method of, of determining what is in fact the highest and best use for the site. Now at Savills, we're quite privileged in that we have 700 offices around the world, which means. That we have local on the ground expertise. When, when you're advising a client, you're typically traveling to, to the market, you're looking at, you're looking at the development site, you're, you're visiting benchmarks and you're evaluating case studies, and you're meeting with people who are in the market and you're spending 2, 3, 4, maybe five days in the market. There's a difference between traveling to a market for three days to get a high level understanding from leaning on someone or an office or a group of, of individuals that have been there for five years, 10 years. They know the market better than anyone will who spends a few days in the market. Mm-hmm. And so, and so we work very closely with, with Savills offices to, identify gaps mm-hmm. To look for opportunity, whether it's, existing demand or latent demand. And so we lean very heavily on, on local market research and we incorporate international best practices. So there's, there's right ways and wrong ways to do. Branded residences in this case. The same is true for offices, hotels, what have you, and using those international best practices and our solid understanding of that space, we then combine that with, on the ground local market research. And, if you're, if you're taking the time to do this, then it's, it's difficult to do it wrong.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And then that's very much around the sort of the product and the location, as you said. If you're sort of looking at the, the potential consumer or the potential purchaser, how, how is that market research done? What are the ways that you geo localize them or, see what their, ability to spend is in what markets and what locations.

Rico Picenoni:

It's definitely market driven. Mm-hmm. It's a 120 square meter or dare I rather, should I say thousand 200 square foot? Square foot, yeah. Apartments. That's a one bedroom, doesn't exist, may not exist in London. Mm-hmm. But, it exists in Dubai. And so the recommendations certainly in terms of size are, are largely market driven brands and operators. They will have their brand standards and they'll typically require that a one bedroom or a two or a three bedroom starts at a certain size.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Yeah.

Rico Picenoni:

Exactly, but still, we, we know, and again, I refer back to the Savills, the local offices, we, we know what's in demand in a specific market. In a particular market. And again, this is where marrying local expertise with international best practices is, is exactly what you would expect. Local market dictates that. A one bedroom is a hundred square meters. Brands require a minimum 120, so you're looking for the best way to deliver that branded residence in a market that has certain expectations.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Gotcha. And then going very quickly again onto the, onto the topic of value. You mentioned the brand bringing a lot of the sort of success factor. What would you say the other things that you've seen deployed that can really enhance or increase just the price level or, or maybe even the experience level of what someone's willing to pay, willing to engage with. What do you say those kind of success levers would be in terms of generating and maximizing value?

Rico Picenoni:

So in a certain, in a certain market, the layout of the apartment will be important. The height of the ceilings, will be important. whether it's an open plan kitchen or, or closed plan. So, and again, we look at what the market commands and then we adapt that. To prepare our development recommendations in terms of what can a brand do to drive value for residential development, it's, it's largely the lifestyle that it delivers to a residence owner. Mm-hmm. And it isn't always product related. It isn't always. The open plan kitchen or the closed plan kitchen, or it isn't always the 50 square meter en suite in the master bedroom. There is the lifestyle that can be largely experienced through a benefits program that a brand prepares and rolls out and delivers, and that benefits program can open up the world. To a residence owner and, and I mean literally the world. So if you have some of the leading operators, they have 5, 6, 7, 9,000 hotels in their portfolio globally. So you're not only in the micro location as a residence owner, but you're treated as a VIP globally, and you enjoy certain experiences that are exclusively provided to residence owners and so the benefits program that a brand can convey to a residence owner, that's, that's a big driver. And sure the product is, the product is to a certain extent, also important. Again, we're talking about high ceilings, we're talking about big open spaces. We're talking about outdoor living.

Adrian Strittmatter:

But that a lot of people can offer as a product per product basis. The brand really gives that extra layer of, as you said,

Rico Picenoni:

Yes.

Adrian Strittmatter:

but also as brand identification. I mean, how many people or when you look at the purchases really are head over heels in love with a brand and it could be anywhere they would purchase it. Would you say that would be a key driver as

Rico Picenoni:

So there are indeed, yes. In certain markets, certain brands resonate more strongly with whatever the target audience is, and in other markets, maybe that brand doesn't work quite as effectively, and so you're looking, certainly as a consultant, you're looking for the right brand that fits the developer's vision. That aligns well with the development itself. That, that resonates with the target audience for, for that particular market.

Adrian Strittmatter:

I mean, it's funny you should mention that because we've, we've worked together on, on one project, which is the SLS in Madrid. Yeah. And when we went down to do the site visit and the location, and then obviously, realized that this is all going to be happening in the, in the Trekker area of Madrid, you go, yeah. Well that's, that's spot on in terms of

Rico Picenoni:

Exactly. Location. Yeah, exactly. 100%.

Adrian Strittmatter:

What's interesting I find also is, is we are talking very much about sort of global markets and global brands. I mean, how, and this is obviously a lot of work that we do together afterwards in a, a sort of branding and a marketing perspective, how do luxury brands adapt to the different markets whilst maintaining their kind of exclusivity or aura of exclusivity? How do they create that sort of authentic, localized experience, but without losing their brand essence?

Rico Picenoni:

I don't think that I would say that brands necessarily adapt to the local market. There are some brands where the brand ethos is very much based on the local market. Mm-hmm. So that it feels like it's authentic, whether it's a hotel or a residential development. I guess by definition a brand is something that's, that regardless where you experience it, it's consistent. So if you're staying in, in Brand X's Hotel in New York, it's a similar, if not the same experience to that brand's hotel in Singapore or in Sydney.

Adrian Strittmatter:

You work with a lot of different brands and you see a lot of them, a lot of new brands coming up. Do you, do you find that the market has still a lot to offer or there's a lot of cut and paste, or is it oversaturated or do you still feel there's room for new concepts and new brands to come in?

Rico Picenoni:

Is the market saturated? there are 220 brands that are active in the branded residential space. Mm-hmm. And it's certainly busy. It's certainly active. I wouldn't say it's approaching rather, I wouldn't say it's saturated. I think it has something to do with how you differentiate yourself from your competitors. Mm-hmm. And by competitors, I mean competing developments. And obviously it has something to do with the economic cycle. Where is, where is the local economy at? What's great for us is that because we have a global mandate, if the market is weak in the Western hemisphere, it's strong in the Eastern hemisphere. If it's weak in one region, it's strong in another region, weak in one country, strong in another country, and so and so we have the, unique ability to relatively consistently develop projects around the world.

Adrian Strittmatter:

So obviously there, there's some. I would say branded residential partnerships or branded residential, I would say, usual suspects that are coming out of the hospitality area with the hotel brands, creating these branded residences. Are there other sort of markets we've seen, car manufacturers and other lifestyle brands created branded residences? Are there any. real surprises that you've seen of partnerships or, other businesses coming out and really entering this real estate, space, I would say with success and panache and their own kind of flare.

Rico Picenoni:

I think so in 2001, Marriott and Bulgari embarked on a joint venture that has brought them to where they are today and you see some wildly successful projects. I think that is a great success story. I. There have been others who have tried and did not fare as well. Mm-hmm. And in a space that's dominated by hotel brands, roughly 80% of the branded residential space is hotel brands, 20% is non-hotel brands. One of the value propositions of branded residences is, is the service that you can experience. It's not just a tangible product, it's the intangible I mentioned before. The benefits program that a brand can convey to a residence owner opens up the world globally to that residence owner. That service aspect can't be replicated by the non-hotel brands, at least not easily, but if you look at the example of Marriott and Bulgari, they've done it. In a very tremendous way. And if the non-hotel brands can reproduce such a jv, then that would be another recipe for success. And I think there are a few of these conversations ongoing. We'll probably, hopefully see more of these in the next three to five years.

Adrian Strittmatter:

But it's interesting'cause even with that one you do mention that JV partnership in the ability to deliver that global brand experience. Are there any other sort of brands that have come in, like tech companies or I. Other people that have come in, I dunno even broader lifestyle like, children's entertainment or Disney or, I dunno, just other people who are entering the market. are there any that you could list off?

Rico Picenoni:

Branded residences. I, I certainly hope no one is perceiving this as a passing trend. Mm-hmm. It seems so, we've extrapolated growth over the next 10 to 15 years. Today there are more than 1500 projects globally branded residential developments. And we've extrapolated that 1500 figure over the next 10 to 15 years and, and we expect there to be 3,500. So there are more brands entering the space. There are certainly more developments being developed. That means that we'll see more and more brands. We've, we've had conversations with brands that are not yet active in this space, seeking to get active in this space. And that would suggest that in, again, the next three to five years, we should see some more of these brands. These brands, their core business never will be residences. Their core business will be hotels or automotive or fashion. And so they're seeking a way to diversify their revenue streams. With the exception of a very, very select few, I don't think these revenue streams will ever get close to their core business. Mm-hmm. But they're developing profound relationships with their customer base. Customer base. Yeah. And so it's a way to build those relationships. It's a way to connect on a different level. It's a way also to encourage brand ambassadorship. A residence owner of a particular brand effectively becomes an ambassador for that brand. Definitely. And, and I think. The brands that are very well established, they, they don't have a big issue. They don't have a big challenge. But the brands that are entering the space, they really need to understand how their brand translates into the residential environment. Mm-hmm. And how do they deliver a value proposition that's going to compete because ultimately they are competing with their peers. And I would add to that automotive brands are not necessarily peers of fashion brands, but in the residential space, they become peers. So it's an interesting, it's an interesting dynamic.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Maybe this is gonna be, a very off the cuff Swiss question that I'll

Rico Picenoni:

huh?

Adrian Strittmatter:

Is there room in a market like Switzerland? This is. More for personal interest, for, for branded residences. Are there any, we, we had one project, which was Six Senses in Crans Montana. Is it something that you see in some of these European markets who've got quite I'd say entrenched views on C, certain aspects around sort of hotel and hospitality. Do you see branded residences having a foothold in some of those markets or working.

Rico Picenoni:

For us, the concept of branded residences should work globally. Mm-hmm. In certain markets, there are certain brands that, and following on my previous point, in some markets, brands resonate better with the target audience.

Adrian Strittmatter:

others. Yeah.

Rico Picenoni:

A fashion brand or an automotive brand might not work in a market where wealth is more understated. Mm-hmm. Not flashy. Mm-hmm. But a classic core brand should work. Mm-hmm. Because. it's either it's an understated luxury or it's a more refined luxury. It's not in your face. Mm-hmm. At the end of the day, a branded residence, certainly in the hotel space, again, conveys a certain lifestyle to the residence owner and, and that lifestyle is privacy, security, asset protection, the possibility at two o'clock in the morning to order a club sandwich. Mm-hmm. From the five star hotel kitchen downstairs, and that that lifestyle may not work for everyone. Mm-hmm. Almost certainly doesn't work for everyone. Or, or rather, not everyone needs it, but even in markets where branded residences have not yet become very well established. Exactly. Yeah. It's still a lifestyle that some seek. Mm-hmm. And there's markets where, like you said, Switzerland, for us, we've been exploring the Nordics. Mm-hmm. Australia, there's a lot of opportunity and we're convinced that these, that this model will work there. Just have to find the right name. But you just need to find, you need to find the developer, I think, who is prepared. To in markets where this concept is not yet established to take the risk. Mm-hmm. As a matter of fact, a development in the UK hit a 30% premium on branded residential sales in a market where the concept had not yet established itself, and just last week received two leads from other developers. On the back of another announcement of branded residences in the market that they now want to enter the space and explore it in this particular market. Because until someone takes that leap of faith, call it, yeah, everyone's gonna be a little bit hesitant. So there's the risk, there's the risk reward there.

Adrian Strittmatter:

and that, and that's a really interesting point. So we're moving towards more the sort of the investor or the person taking the. The, the, the gamble or the risk or the, the first to enter the market. How have you seen investors priorities shift over the last couple of years? Within the, within this market

Rico Picenoni:

Investors, you, you're talking about residents, owners or developers? No, the developers. Sorry. The developer. Yeah. Coming out of the pandemic, if you had a single asset class, depending on what that asset class was, times were tough. Hotels were at single digit hotel occupancy. Offices, everyone was working from home. So if you were in a single asset class, it was tough. What some developers realized is the more you can diversify your development. Now, obviously that is also tied to zoning permissions and certain building constraints and development constraints If you diversify your product, mixed use developments. Then to a certain extent, you can make it more resilient. You can protect as a developer your interests. And so more diversification. And we've seen an increase, not a significant one, but we've seen an increase in the number of standalone branded residential developments. Mm-hmm. As well. So leaning on the brands to drive as well to support the residential development. Diversification.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Okay. And within the hospitality space, obviously and the, and the residential space, there are a lot of different sort of sub-markets and sub-asset classes. Do you see that also in terms of diversification, where people will say, okay, I'm gonna go to senior living. I'm going to go to student accommodation, I'm gonna go branded residences, I'm gonna go, so, so basically differentiating within, within those kind of sub-asset classes within residential as well.

Rico Picenoni:

So we have not our developers doing it. Mm-hmm. Undeniably. Mm-hmm. As a matter of fact, we've. Been approached to gauge interest in branded residences for the senior living space. Mm-hmm. That's a whole nother topic for discussion, but developers are certainly exploring alternative real estate classes, like you said. Mm-hmm. Senior living, student accommodation, and the usual suspects commercial. Residential hotel. Mm. How can you, how can you develop a and protect your development? And still, we still see roughly 90% of hotel branded residences that are co-located. And so you're seeing the diversification. As a matter of fact, last week I was having a conversation with an operator, and the operator suggested that they are now only looking at mixed use developments. Seeking to develop within their hotel projects, branded residential components?

Adrian Strittmatter:

And then with their links to,'cause we've seen also, I think it's 25 hours as well from a hotel brand perspective, who've also obviously got their coworking spaces. And so their offering, I mean, they, they're, they're spanning throughout the full lifestyle offer offering. Sorry.

Rico Picenoni:

they're, they're driving. Revenue per square meter.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Hmm.

Rico Picenoni:

In a hotel lobby, you're not making much revenue, but if you can convert part of the hotel lobby into, I don't know, an art studio or a coworking space or what have you, you're driving more revenue per square meter. And this is, this is the pitch of the brands of the hotel operators. We can drive more per square meter based on. How we're doing things at other properties or based on this new concept that we've established that we're developing. And so they understand that developers are, are revenue driven, profit driven, and they're seeking to find ways to drive revenue in places where previously there was no revenue. I.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Yeah. And then if we were to hone in on. Like a case study or a kind of best in class example, obviously I think it's gonna be quite hard for you to cherry pick. So maybe we cherry pick a few things through different projects, but one that really from from start to finish you can say, well, we took it from really from A to Z and it generated. Huge amount of, value for the whole of the stakeholders involved in that project. So from the investor to the developer, to the hotel brand, and then now to the end consumer as a sort of live and active project. Have you got one, which is your, sort of your, your benchmark project for best in class where you think, yeah. All those things ticked, and that you could share with us today?

Rico Picenoni:

For, for us. Not one. Not one in particular, but I think for Savills, what's important and certainly what the value proposition is at Savills is the. Turnkey solution in that we have teams at Savills that can support with land acquisition. We have teams at Savills that can then support with development consultancy. We have teams at Savills who can then support with marketing and sales and with property management. So for Savills, a success story is one where. You've taken a project from A to Z for, for a developer. Mm-hmm. In terms of, in terms of projects in which we have supported, again, our, advisory services contemplate projects that are sometimes three to five years in the future, and they have not yet reached that stage. And this is especially true as well when we're talking about mixed use developments, because there's a hotel component and that hotel component won't be monetized until it opens. Mm-hmm. Residence as you can sell off plan and you can monetize the development before it opens to generate cash flow and de-risk it. Mm-hmm. But the hotel component, and again, I say hotel component because 90% of of the, hotel branded residential space is still mixed use.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Let's talk a little bit about the finish. so as a consultant, do you go and see your developments

Rico Picenoni:

Oh yeah,

Adrian Strittmatter:

Absolutely.

Rico Picenoni:

absolutely

Adrian Strittmatter:

I think that's really, I think that's super interesting'cause I think we all work on this space and we said, there's that legacy piece. So do you, yeah. Do you sometimes go back and not that you sit on a bench and people watch, but but do, do you, do you enjoy going back to see

Rico Picenoni:

a hundred percent.

Adrian Strittmatter:

you've created, how it's working and gelling together and

Rico Picenoni:

A hundred percent. Once the project is delivered, then absolutely love going back to see, if not the decisions that you made, obviously it's the developer who makes the decisions, but if the recommendations that you provided the developer were implemented, that's number one. Do you check for that? But then to see how successful or unsuccessful that recommendation was? And so Yeah, absolutely.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And how the people are engaging with it and

Rico Picenoni:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah,

Adrian Strittmatter:

forming part of that promise, which is providing them with that lifestyle that we all work to pitch to them.

Rico Picenoni:

yeah. How do you learn from it? If they were the right decisions, how can you push them harder? How do you extract even more value from that project?

Adrian Strittmatter:

That's, yeah, and I think that's, that's the key thing that we all have to sort of ask ourselves all the time, especially as you're saying on these kind of long-term projects, you three to five years or sometimes, you know, we, we are working on projects now that will be delivered in, you know, 10, sometimes even 12 years when they're big master plans. So the question is, what are the things that you can see potentially on the horizon, which are not necessarily big things now, but that you know, that you are going to have to take into consideration in the in the future? Are there any things

Rico Picenoni:

Yeah. Helping up ESG Yeah. Sustainability. Mm-hmm. And it's, and it's interesting, so, so when you're selling, when you're selling to prospective purchasers mm-hmm. They may, they may or may not be interested in the sustainability in the ESG, but they have the self-awareness that should they decide to sell. And it's very likely that the secondary, secondary market is interested in sustainability, ESG. And so the resale value is affected based on, based on what you're developing today and.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Super interesting. Yeah.

Rico Picenoni:

There's, there's legislation, I'll, I'll add to that as well. There's, in certain markets, there's legislation that's being implemented that requires a developer to develop the project in a certain way. That's, again, from, from an environmental, from from, sustainable perspective. If the developer. decides not to implement because maybe that legislation has not yet been enforced or, or if the developer develops it without those sustainability features or those ESG features. Then for a residential development, that could mean in a few years the residence owners will be obliged to. Through their service charge, retrofit their development to make it more sustainable. And as a resident, as a purchaser, that's something that I would be thinking about if I purchased this residence today that does not have A, B and C sustainability features I'm gonna stack up is, does it mean that in five years it'll be my wallet that suffers because I need to pay for it because. Local authorities are requiring that I install solar panels or, treat the facade in any way to improve the building management. So that's, those are decisions that residents, owners need to make today.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And to close off with a, with a couple of quick snap questions. are there any game changing insights from the market that you, that you've gained during your career that you could share with, share with our audience.

Rico Picenoni:

The

Adrian Strittmatter:

Mm-hmm.

Rico Picenoni:

changing. The game changing insight that I learned as an individual is to be curious. Mm-hmm. When you have kids, they're constantly asking why. Mm-hmm. can we get a dog? No. Why? cause there are a lot of work. Why?'cause you need to walk'em and feed them. Why? Because dogs need attention. Why? So they constantly ask why, why? Mm-hmm. Why? And as a professional, if you're constantly asking why, you're gonna find answers that you didn't know you needed. Mm-hmm. So if there's a, if there's any game changing insight, I would say be curious and stay curious.

Adrian Strittmatter:

And for a developer, if you were to mention sort of a golden rule on how to create that long term value, I. We mentioned ESG and sort of future proofing,

Rico Picenoni:

So, so for the developers, I would suggest that they engage the right professionals from the beginning. We've been, we've been involved in projects that. Are advanced, realized that they had it wrong from the beginning. It may or may not have been too late to make changes, and so then you need to work within the constraints that you're given. But in those cases, had the developer engaged the professionals from the outset, they in all likelihood wouldn't have been in the predicament. In which they found themselves. And so engage the right advisors and consultants, do the research. Acknowledge that you don't know what you don't know. Mm-hmm. And I guess again, it comes back to curiosity.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Do you find that happens a lot that you are brought in? For us. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen on the weirdest

Rico Picenoni:

Yeah.

Adrian Strittmatter:

you think those are the ones where we shouldn't be brought in as a kind of firefighting, save the day team.

Rico Picenoni:

Because the developer is reputed and because the brand is reputed.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Yeah, and the projects is

Rico Picenoni:

Yeah, huge.

Adrian Strittmatter:

you would thought, well, there's gonna be tons of dd, we're gonna walk in there, there's gonna be a correct brief. And sometimes you're called not at midnight with a panicked voice on the phone, but you know, very close to launch.

Rico Picenoni:

Not, not for us. I suspect that your involvement is. A little bit later, a stage in the development cycle we're trying to back. You would, yes. Yes. For us, it's probably more the exception rather than the rule, which is encouraging because it means that developers are largely engaging the right people at the right time. It's the exception and not the rule, but there are, there are a handful of those exceptions.

Adrian Strittmatter:

They're always surprising when they happen,

Rico Picenoni:

And they are surprising. Yes. Yes.

Adrian Strittmatter:

One final question then, if you were to obviously look at the high end or the luxury market in hospitality and residential? I mean, what do you think is going to define the next decade? What are the trends or what are the things that you think that might really define that market?

Rico Picenoni:

Trends, plural, because I don't think that it's necessarily one trend that will define. The next decade. It's probably a combination of, of trends and it's what we spoke about before that ESG, sustainability, health and wellness. So we're, we're seeing buyer profiles change in certain markets. Branded residences are becoming. An investment product. Mm-hmm. So when you look at hotel chain scales, you have luxury, upper upscale, you have upscale, you have upper midscale, midscale, et cetera. So in certain regions, branded residences were originally a luxury. The luxury product. They were born out of the hotel industry and they were born within the hotel industry out of the luxury segment. But we're seeing more projects at lower chain scales, and so it's appealing to a wider audience and that wider audience has different. purchase requirements, purchase expectations. So we're seeing buyer profiles change. We're seeing ESG become increasingly important. We're seeing sustainability become increasingly important and, and health and wellness. You're seeing more wellness brands that are entering the space and even brands that are not in the wellness space. Finding a way to bring that. Into either their brand, DNA or or to merge that with the developer. We're talking about air quality, sleep quality, water quality. We're talking about outdoor spaces. Mm-hmm. We're talking if we learned, and I hope we learned many things from the pandemic, if we learned one thing, it was that many of us are privileged to work remotely. We don't need to be on site to do all of our work. And so working from home means that residential developments are looking for how to either incorporate coworking spaces or offices within residential, within residential units and more outdoor spaces. spaces that are. Focused more on self-care. We were at a project in the south of France where the en suite was equally as large as the master bedroom, meaning residence owners are taking care of themselves. Mm-hmm. And it's not just about, it's not just about sleeping, waking up, eating, going to work. It's, it's, it's much more than that. And so these are, these are some of the trends that we're expecting to see.

Adrian Strittmatter:

So all about quality of life.

Rico Picenoni:

Quality of life.

Adrian Strittmatter:

Yeah. And I'll always be fascinated by the pillow menu in some, in some

Rico Picenoni:

Yes.

Adrian Strittmatter:

found. That's a great,

Rico Picenoni:

Yes.

Adrian Strittmatter:

that's a great addition. Rico, thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute joy. a lot of topics covered, a lot to discover and yeah, I was absolutely thrilled to have you on board.

Rico Picenoni:

It was a pleasure. Adrian, thank you again so much for having me here.