Turning assets into priceless canvases and unique destinations

In this episode of Bricks & More, host Adrian Strittmatter sits down with Calum Hall, founder of Creative Debuts, to explore the evolving role of art in real estate.

From office spaces to retail environments, Calum shares how art isn’t just an aesthetic addition—it’s a powerful tool for placemaking, community engagement, and even financial value creation.

They discuss:

✅ The impact of art on tenant experience, brand identity, and footfall

✅ How developers can integrate art throughout a project’s lifecycle – from public consultation to tenant activation

✅ Why embracing local artists can make spaces more inclusive and dynamic

✅ The growing business case for art in commercial real estate

Whether you're a developer, designer, or just passionate about rethinking real estate value, this episode will show the hidden potential of the walls around you.

Calum Hall on LinkedIn
Creative Debuts: http://creativedebuts.co.uk

Adrian Strittmatter on LinkedIn
Saentys: https://saentys.com/ 

Transcript

Adrian Strittmatter: 0:54

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. I'd like to start today's episode with a short quote and a short definition. Here's the quote. Art opens our hearts and minds, creates a dialogue, and brings people together. For the definition, art is the most effective tool we have for creating meaningful experiences and elevating the human spirit. We know that people make great places, and that art, in all its form, is not only an amazing catalyst to increase visibility and engagement, but can also be a true value generator. So to help us understand its value and all become art ambassadors, I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Calum Hall. Calum is the founder and creative director of Creative Debuts, a platform that connects undiscovered artists and designers with potential supporters, buyers and renters of artwork. Through hosting dynamic events, offering a workplace artwork subscription service, Commissioning bespoke projects, providing no strings attached grants and selling art, Calum and his diverse community of creatives are flipping the art world upside down and making our urban landscapes more enjoyable and more inclusive destinations. Hi Calum. Pleasure to really sort of welcome you in. It's 2025. It's been a couple of difficult years both in the real estate, but also the art market. How are you, how are you sensing the year, the year to come?

Calum Hall: 2:24

I'm excited about it, to be honest. I'm excited about it because, I feel more I feel more purposeful in the work that i'm doing i'm feeling like i'm making More authentic and genuine connections with people that do want to champion art and understand the value and the impact of art and spaces and I think as pressures on society pressures on people Competition in the workplace, the challenges of recruitment, all these factors, whether it's in the office or whether it's in retail or anything like that, art plays a role in all of it, so I feel that, I feel invigorated after what has been a pretty, rollercoaster few years, but again, nothing in the past. In this art world in doing, you know in this entrepreneurial experience is easy, right? So, you know if brexit covid cost of living crisis, whatever it is that's been thrown at us for the last few years I feel that art is an amazing vehicle to bring people together to have important conversations and to transform spaces.

Adrian Strittmatter: 3:20

It's really interesting point that you've just raised in terms of enhancing people's experiences of places. how do you feel that art can really help do and increase that level of experience that people can have of a space, of a place, of a destination?

Calum Hall: 3:36

Well, I think a lot of it is about storytelling, So, for example, the art that you have on your wall says a lot about you, right? So whether that's the art itself, what you're looking at, whether it's the story of the artist that made it. And I think when spaces are looking for unique ways to connect with people, looking for ways to champion local communities or artists from marginalized communities. I think I think art plays such an amazing role for that So for example, if you went into an office, they might have amazing furniture, you know Everywhere has got plants these days But the art on the walls is the first non verbal way to show what you stand for, you know the flag in the ground. What is it you represent? And so whether it's a dusty old fruit bowl painting or a beautiful portrait by a black artist It evokes different emotions in the viewer. and I think there's a responsibility for all of us, whether you're in the arts, whether you're in real estate, whether you're in whatever, to champion creativity, to champion communities, and and invigorate space as well while it's happening.

Adrian Strittmatter: 4:31

So that's a really interesting point, I think, in terms of of the emotional, the experience and what it says about you. Do you think that connection, specifically around real estate and real estate developers, do you think there is sufficient consciousness of how powerful that can be on their behalf?

Calum Hall: 4:52

More so than there was. You know, gone from, here's your wall put your art up for free, we're doing you a favour for exposure payment. That's, there's less of that. Don't get me wrong, it still exists. but there's definitely less of that, and I think, therefore, more appreciation of art and creativity. I don't know if that was catapulted a bit further forward during covid when everyone was at home reconnecting with creativity using Creativity is a bit of an oasis from you know the world outside And therefore when we got back into the workplace We thought hang on a minute like we need plants around us because it's good for our mental health We need art around us because it inspires creativity and actually boosts productivity and well being and all these good things in people that are in the spaces so I think there's definitely, I think it's still very early in what the collaborations could look like, For example, if you've got a building being developed, you can work with artists at every level of that development. Whether it's the hoardings, every hoarding, boring vinyl with the agent's name and number or whatever. You can do so much, and I think when a building is coming into a community, What is the building then giving back to that community as well? And a great way to do that is the art on the walls, the design throughout, events engaging with local people, workshops for the people within the building. like art is such a brilliant vehicle for that. And I think, with it, with the kind of industry being more competitive, people popping up, businesses looking for ways to differentiate themselves from others. Art is an amazing way for that. And I think particularly when you look at, I was reading somewhere today that, Stormzy's doing like a collaboration with McDonald's, right? So you can go into McDonald's and buy Stormzy's meal. Which seems a little bit counterintuitive when he was just doing something about men's health, but anyway. yeah, but, brands are understanding the power of partnering with Creatives where obviously Stormzy's is huge, but you could have an amazing hotel being developed in collaboration with an artist where the artists, or style is through the building and then it becomes more of a showpiece And there's you know with there's lots of amazing artists that do that philippe pantone For example, there's incredible partnerships with I just saw he did this, swimming pool and amazing but I think there's going to be more of it because I think there needs to be more of it and then it creates, yeah, just a bit of individuality within the spaces and

Adrian Strittmatter: 7:04

And in terms of obviously that's, we're talking a lot about the kind of visual aspect, the visual art, but obviously art is multi platform, pluriform. Have you seen sounds and set more sort of sensorial artists occupying the space within real estate

Calum Hall: 7:18

as well? Yeah, I think, well, what we're all looking for is experience, right? And I think, the challenge, the real estate in all forms, whether it's retail, whether it's offices, whether it's, your home, it's about, Creating that experience where you feel something when you're there, and I think there's no better way of doing that than connecting with as many different senses as possible. I think it's quite interesting how little smell

Adrian Strittmatter: 7:38

is used,

Calum Hall: 7:38

smell is so nostalgic. It transforms you into a place. everyone gets excited about the perfume adverts on the telly, even though you can't smell what the perfumes like. So then when you're in a space, Plants, whatever, smells, sounds, art, visual, music. It's all part of, I think, this whole experience. and I think when you've got people working from home, they're in their zone. They're looking at the art that they like, the plants that they like, and then they're going into an office and they're not experiencing that. And I think that's quite jarring. And then in re in retail If you want to buy a pair of trainers, you just buy online. You don't have to go on the tube. You don't have to go in, you don't need to deal, whatever. You just buy online. So the reason you therefore go into the retail is to connect with the brand, align with the brand experience, understand more than just the selling of the product and art as we've done quite a few times is an amazing way of doing that. whether it is, for example, what we do with Hugo Boss, which is commissioning credible artists for artworks within their stores. Again, amazing storytelling, giving people a chance to connect with the artist. Seeing something totally unique that they will never see anywhere else in the world. And then there's also driving footfall. What retail space is obviously challenged with is how do they keep bringing people in, connecting new consumers with the brand and art is, you know, we were doing, takeovers of the four story Oxford street flagship with adidas. Two and a half thousand people we would get there for an event. 150 creatives, product customization, live art, food and beverage, music, like all this different types of things, which then aligns a brand's community and experience with a creative community and experience. And it

Adrian Strittmatter: 9:16

it

Calum Hall: 9:16

works

Adrian Strittmatter: 9:16

well. What would you say around more sort of B2B or commercial real estate? who have you seen within the London and international market as a developer or client of yours, who've been really championing that because of what it brings from an experience perspective, but also, the knock on effects to the tenants they'd have in their building. Who would you say are the champions of that?

Calum Hall: 9:37

So we've, um, I've been working with Montague Evans, for example, for the last, I think it's four or five years, and they have two collections every year. And the current collection that they've got is all from LGBTQ plus community. And there are about the. In the next couple of months, they're having an art collection. It's all about the Southeast Asian Heritage Month. So they understand that, by showcasing and supporting art, they are also celebrating their company culture. You know, they want to make, they want to ensure that no matter who comes in their building feels accepted, welcomed, celebrated by the art on their walls, because it is one of the very few ways you can do that. And I think that has a ripple effect to, To just everyone's day to day life, I think when people are sat in an office or in a space and they feel that they are is speaking to them. It's being curated around what they're into their company ethos, their company pillars. I think it has a transformational effect. there's lots of other, we've what we really want to try and focus on is being able to curate art and activate space from a wide range of different partners, so for example, we work with Womble Bond Dickinson, which is a law firm and we do are up and down the country for them and their offices, so we've got on one side, we've got the corporate legal kind of stuff. And on the other side, we can do, the more younger brands as it were, you whether it's the Adidas, whatever, because there is The challenge is not amazing talented artists looking for opportunities. The challenge is finding the opportunities and aligning

Adrian Strittmatter: 11:08

it. Which is weird if you, if you think of, of London as, if not the, one of the biggest, I think it is the biggest, city in Europe. Therefore, one could argue from a real estate perspective, the biggest canvas in Europe. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you think there's sufficient. collaboration between the amazing talent that you have in London, the depth of talent you have in London, and I would argue the depth of the canvas that you

Calum Hall: 11:31

in London. I would say there's not, I would say you see this by, the sort of show piece London Art activations tend to be from, the artists get used quite a lot. So they'll go from one pro, which is a celebration of that talent, but also probably a bit of a, magnifying glass on the fact that maybe people aren't looking hard enough for who is the

Adrian Strittmatter: 11:51

the next

Calum Hall: 11:52

coming through. London, in my opinion, is without doubt one of the best cities in the world to be an artist. It's also one of the most challenging, it's expensive. People are renting and the whole rental market is very challenging. Art studio spaces is difficult. people are living at home. They don't have space to create their art. There's challenges with accessing the knowledge to be an artist. Pricing work, framing work, talking about your work, building portfolios, all that kind of stuff. You've obviously got incredible institutions here. You can go and see some of the best artworks in the world for free. You know, these types of things are amazing and obviously surrounded by cultures and communities from all over the world. but there is still that. that It's still not flowing through between the, the, retail and creative worlds. But it's definitely more, you know? And I think, as I was saying earlier, I think that will only become more important as everything else is under the

Adrian Strittmatter: 12:41

of So what would you say then, in essence, if I understand correctly, and using a very bad football analogy it's difficult to communicate between the different leagues, the up and coming, there's...

Calum Hall: 12:53

But speak, people speaking different languages, you know. This is, this is why I think what we're doing with Creative Debuts is so important because we are that connector between art lovers and artists and being that bridge to not only take the artist on the journey but take The client or the partner of the business on that journey to which is understanding

Adrian Strittmatter: 13:10

that

Calum Hall: 13:11

working with an artist is about, celebrating their authentic creative style as well as getting something beautiful for your wall. You know, and I think that and that kind of journey is really beautiful, creating something unique for a space that's a career defining moment for an emerging artist. These things are like transformational for the artist and for the space. and I think what we, we're in obviously in Shoreditch now, 10 years ago, every wall had a mural on, there was pop up exhibitions. I was doing, shows on Rivington street

Adrian Strittmatter: 13:40

every month. And that's changed?

Calum Hall: 13:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely changed. Well, it's adverts

Adrian Strittmatter: 13:45

on the walls mostly, Okay,

Calum Hall: 13:47

and which is, you know, I get, but it's not really, you know, and obviously the, how, why everyone wanted to be in Shoreditch was because of the culture, because it was the coolest, one of the coolest places in the world, and then everything comes in and then it. That the culture is not nurtured and looked after whether it's bars closing down as independent coffee shops closing down where it's murals being replaced with adverts, whether it's lack of galleries, the cost of rent, whatever it is. So this is why I think we all have a responsibility that if we want to move into an area because we love it. We want to keep celebrating. We want to keep keep nurturing it. Yeah, because otherwise it can become sterile and stagnant and that's not what we want. we want to have, we want to have places that feel like they're exciting and creative and dynamic and evolving and all this kind of stuff. And creativity can work perfectly alongside real, real estate and corporate, whatever it is, because as you say, it's about surfaces and it's about walls

Adrian Strittmatter: 14:45

because as I think also if you were to sort of put a kind of analogy about the artists creating a unique piece to a degree well, not to a degree. That's what the real estate developer, the architect, are doing. They're creating a unique building. Okay, some of them look vaguely similar, but they're doing that same thing. So you would argue that normally that understanding of how what they're creating is unique and the artist is creating is unique, that synergy should arguably be simpler than what it seems to be.

Calum Hall: 15:16

and that's why I just think it's, some artists don't necessarily help themselves with the ability to reply to emails, for example. So there's definitely sometimes a communication block, but I also think there's a, right, we've done this building. It looks incredible. It's got a showpiece staircase. It looks brilliant. And there's been CGI's of artwork on the wall and no one's actually then decided to follow up with artwork or it's, or we've got a blank wall. Let's just find something and bang it up. And, Cheap frames non reflective glass art without a story, but it's something on the walls to so you don't think about it. And with art being so subjective I think a lot of the times people may not want to make that decision of what the art on the wall is. And that's where curators or partners or Creative Debuts or you know, all these other amazing platforms out there are meant to be experts in the space and should be able to work together with the developers or whatever to have Art just seamlessly flow through it, you know, whether it's you go into a reception There's a beautiful artwork on the wall and it's like, okay Well, you could have a label with the artist details and you could scan a qr code on that label And all of a sudden you've got a video of the artist talking to you about making the artwork. And all of a sudden you've just got an extra layer of immersion an extra layer of engagement, storytelling, You know all these kind of bits which is Which is amazing, as opposed to a print on the wall that means nothing.

Adrian Strittmatter: 16:30

well, yeah, you are, you are pushing the narrative. You are allowing people to engage or not to engage, but if they are engaging, then realizing the depth that comes

Calum Hall: 16:39

Yeah, and just like We all want to be surrounded by beautiful things and we all and we want to you know Like if we're in london, it's because we love culture. We love community. We love creativity We love the dynamism of the city We love all this kind of stuff and that shouldn't stop when you get into a building That should continue should actually be enhanced because because it's it's a controlled environment that can be incredible and I think you see it a lot with I think the plants and art Relationship is quite interesting. You know, our every space has plans, right? You're not gonna go into a new office and it doesn't have plants.'cause that's considered, it's an easy decision to make. It's not cheap either, but, people can see the benefits of it. And that's, and art is an obvious one that goes

Adrian Strittmatter: 17:20

alongside that. And typically, so, so, not assuming, I mean, I think we're getting to the point that, a heightened level of experience within a space will drive engagement. Will drive visibility will drive people's desire to be part of that space. What would you say, or what are the different things that creative debut does to be able to take people and specifically real estate developers or clients like you were mentioning on that journey? What are the kind of things that you guys can do to really? Yeah, foster and begin and kindle that journey.

Calum Hall: 17:54

Yeah, so what we've done a lot of is, for example, if there's an empty space, whether it's vacant, whether it's a shell and core, whether it's in between tenants, we can occupy that space. We can host exhibitions. We could host community focused workshops. We can host, a whole range of kind of, Elements that are creative and not necessarily just art on the walls. So we want to make sure that people have the opportunity to make things and do all this kind of stuff. So we can make spaces the talk of the town, we can make them exciting. So when, you know, a developer is showing, an agent is showing someone around to check out the space, it's engaging, it's exciting, there's people talking about it, it's already on the map. So we, we can, we do stuff like that. We do an artwork rental. So that's what we do with, Monte Evans. So the artwork changes every six months. We work closely with them. It's a great opportunity to, for the people in the office to discover new art. We get to showcase more artists. We get more money in artist pockets. Everyone

Adrian Strittmatter: 18:47

kind of wins. Mm-hmm I've heard that depending on the level of notoriety of an artist, they're kind of sometimes reticent for the rental program. How

Calum Hall: 18:57

are you finding that? I don't work with artists that would like, I guess if you're super established and it's different. Right. like, but for the artists that I work with, they are crying out for opportunities to have their work seen. They're crying out for opportunities to have their work presented in a way that they're proud Of whether that's the framing or whether that's in the spaces that they're in. They want people outside of their immediate family the people living in the house to see their art Right, and they also want to make some money. So, I think that With and I think what's great about what we're trying to do is we want to have access Both from artists and art lovers to each other at various different levels, you know. So if you're in an office and the artwork changes every six months you'll get to experience a whole range of different styles, You get to connect with different artists check out their work buy their work Whatever it is, and then it changes you're not So emotionally connected to what's on the wall, but you might miss some pieces when it's gone. And that's quite that's quite nice, too um but with purchasing, that's a different experience, too And you might have a statement, reception artwork that you want to have something that really sums up, you know It's been made for you. It's perfect It takes all the boxes and then that becomes part of your collection and this is the other thing, you know with working with hugo boss, for example is they're building an incredible art collection while also Ticking all these other boxes off. So, for example, you go to Regent Street and there's two artworks there by Brixton based artist Olly Fathers that were, that are an amazing celebration of his work. So, they, the brand had their brief, colors, this, and there's nothing too complicated because they wanted the artist to be as authentic in his style. Yeah, and then, so, and then what they've got out of it is two beautiful artworks that are the only ones in the world. They've got people coming in there to check out Olly's work because they love his work. And, and then. And of good value. This is the other thing like working with artists. It doesn't have to be

Adrian Strittmatter: 20:42

it costs the world,

Calum Hall: 20:43

know All obviously depends on kind of what tier you're in But for the tiers that we're in you can have something really impactful really statement artwork and it's definitely not breaking the bank And then for ollie, he's got paid. he's got two artworks on regent street Which is

Adrian Strittmatter: 20:57

prime location Prime, yeah, best gallery

Calum Hall: 20:59

Exactly, but so he could say if someone was like right ollie What are what galleries have your artwork in he could say de de de de da. But actually he could go to you say right go to hugo boss regent street You've got people in there with the money to buy it because they're looking to buy a suit. or whatever They've got the right demographic for his audience. He's already been paid. So that doesn't happen in the gallery He's already got his money and he's aligned with a brand that feels is connected to his demographic of his audience. So it's a win win win for everyone. And then the consumers going in there being like, Oh, wow, this is I've never seen this before. this is a perfect harmony between artist and business and then they're doing it in we've done. We just had an artwork go to Shanghai. We've done Amsterdam, done Liverpool and then all of a sudden Hugo Boss have a really exciting art collection by amazing artists from around the world. So that's a great way of doing it. it. Um, And I think with all, like we were saying, with all the challenges that there are, and there are a lot of challenges, whether it's footfall, whether it's spend per head, whatever, whether these things, these things matter, you know, I think these

Adrian Strittmatter: 22:04

it's They matter, and I think from what you're saying as well, if we go down to the bare bone basics, they work. They work on a, on a, on a visibility level. On a financial level, because they are going to increase footfall, they're going to increase visibility. You said something at the beginning of the podcast which was really interesting with regards to the ability of art to be able to follow the development cycle of a building from conception all the way to delivery. Specifically when Let's say a developer is keen to sort of create a new destination somewhere. You mentioned something about that link to community, which normally goes through, public consultation. Have you worked or heard of or times where you guys have been involved at the inception, when you're reaching out to the community and using art as a medium to be able to Engage, but also accelerate the acceptance process of saying this is a development in our neighborhood for us, which is going to

Calum Hall: 23:09

value. Absolutely. So we worked with Cast Interiors who were developing the new legal and general building in Cardiff. Big, 12 floors or something. Big building. And I was working with a cast team. As they were proposing for that job, so as they were pitching for that job, and my responsibility within that was to put together a list of amazing Welsh artists that we should be spotlighting in the space. So they'll be, their other competitors or whatever will be talking about the amazing furniture, the plants, as everyone is talking about that. But Cast won the job and they said that, that a big part of that was the art integration within the space. Because they're in Cardiff, they were loud and proud about being in Cardiff. So that's shout about Welsh artists, and so I think and that's from the very beginning from not winning anything from just proposing and I do a lot of that, because at the end of the day, people want to see the are the, they have to kind of understand why it's important. and the artists love it because they, they're like, Oh, wow, I'm going to be in this big building. I'm gonna have my, Make a few quid and, I get to go and see it and talk about it and get some photos and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, from before there's even a brick on the floor, like we want to be involved in, in the, in the

Adrian Strittmatter: 24:17

conversation. And in terms of the community,'cause if I remember rightly, you guys were involved in, I think it was with Brookfield when you created the kind of hoarding with, you know, celebrating the work of the people who had been, building this building as well. how did that come across to the various audiences as well in terms of generating value?

Calum Hall: 24:35

So we worked on the principal place. So there was so as the hoardings face of the community that was in partnership with the Krillas size and the focus off that project was to spotlight local heroes, you know, whether it was someone who worked in the bar, someone whatever, because and then Paint them on the walls. So I think a lot of and this was on hoardings. This was construction hoardings. We had I think it was like six or seven artists that each paint a portrait and it was you know A kind of Hall of Fame of the locals of local people. And I think and that's a really good example of obviously this huge building going up Amazon's head HQ HQ, Which we actually do that some of the artwork For inside as well, but it's a great way of going into a space and understanding why the area is important. who is the kind of the key people or just some people that from the community that make sure it's special and, and they, everyone loves it. Then everyone wants that. Portrait done, they might you know, they might be like, oh, I've just had my portrait painted by mr Sense, for example, who's an amazing graffiti artist and that's it's empowering, you know, and particularly when you're painting the portraits of people from diverse backgrounds And whether it's older gentlemen, it's kids. It's black women. It's you know, it's a celebration of the community and I think that's important, we don't

Adrian Strittmatter: 25:47

want loads

Calum Hall: 25:47

white faces everywhere. You know, we want to be celebrating for what london is and And it's it. These types of activations are, they're not difficult to do. this is the thing. It's just about having the means to do it and the

Adrian Strittmatter: 25:59

desire to do it. So, and I agree with the not difficult to do, and I agree also with the inclusivity impact that can have. So, bit of a stupid question, why aren't more

Calum Hall: 26:14

people not doing

Adrian Strittmatter: 26:15

it then?

Calum Hall: 26:15

I honestly just think it's, if you're doing a building, you've got a million and one things to worry about. You know, a million things that actually like, the art is, I think just that experience with Man it working with artists or reaching out to us and knowing what's good, with it being so subjective people don't necessarily like Don't want to get tripped up by someone that's rubbish or it's hype or it's this or it's that and if and also I think you know, I find this a lot if you ask people what art they like it's What do you mean I don't really know anything about you know I'm not an expert on art. When everyone's got a wallpaper on the phone. Everything Everyone's got somewhat something hanging in the house somewhere. Even if it's a family portrait. Okay, so you're like You like photography, like, and I think a lot of it is just breaking down those barriers of, like just working with artists and not feeling like, just because you've got a shirt on, you can't speak to an artist that's covered in paint and dungarees, it's, there's a beautiful Venn diagram where both those worlds overlap massively, but it's, I think a lot of it is access to artists. It's the time to kind of, um, Yeah. To dedicate to right. Okay. What do we want people to feel when they come into this space and art plays a massive role in that. So it's not that it's not that people don't see the value. Of course they do. There's definitely sometimes a bit too much haggling on price because I think it's sometimes people will pay you know, however much for a reception desk or for a a Sofa, but for some reason that's then not brought into all what about this amazing art on the wall That's a one of one, like the only one in the world like that seeing, How often do we just see the only thing in the world, And that's the special thing about original artwork and it's you know, it's a part of the soul of the artist. It's a really Magical and spiritual thing that sometimes, you know, you get caught up in it a little bit But and it's you may just look at it as being oh, that's just paint on a canvas but it's the accumulation of thousands of hours of tears of triumphs of learnings of mistakes of all these kind of components for a creative experience on a piece of art on the wall and um, and I think we need more of it. I think the world is better with more art.

Adrian Strittmatter: 28:20

Well, it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's completely human. 100 percent human. And I think as we, forever, leap and bound forward on, technological advances. Those are nice grounding points as well. in terms of if you were to describe Your ideal real estate project, like starting from the beginning of the development process all the way to the delivery. What kind of different touch points would you see like the best client, like the best thing that could ever happen? Like a commission say like, okay, we're developing this area in London, Creative Debuts, we want you to accompany us for the, let's say seven or six years until PC, until development. And you're right there at the beginning, as you were in the job on Cardiff. How, how, how could you sort of map out those, like, best in class touchpoints that

Calum Hall: 29:09

would be the ideal job? Well, I think, with anything like that, community engagement's really important. And I think that can be done through creative workshops or interacting with creative people, local artists within the area. maybe it's artists from outside the area collaborating with local artists. So you might have, for example, a slightly more established artist as almost like a mentor for younger artists within the scheme. There's without doubt kind of opportunities for the artist to collaborate throughout all elements of the design, whether it's through light fixings, whether it's through The plasterboard touches, whether it's through the furniture layout, whether it's the flow of the space, whether it's the hoardings, whether it's what vinyl is going to be on the glazing, whether it's, again, the furniture or anything like that, every element can have a creative input on it. And what I love doing is bringing people together through art. So I think any space for me, the more that can connect the space with the community, whether that's through, you know, something simple, you've got, you've got about to launch the space. Have amazing art there and combine the launch of the space with the launch of the art. And then you've got a real interesting mix of people. So you've got people, suit and ties, there for the kind of the launch of the building. Then you've got creatives. You've got that beautiful amalgamation of people in the middle. Yeah, and then and it's exactly the same. I think in the retail experience, you've got product launches and campaigns all the time but the public are exhausted with that. We don't need more product being sold to us all the time. We're spending far too much time on our phones anyway. all our eyes are turning into the shape of iPhones because we're just staring at screens all the time. So we need to bring people together. We need to be looking at things in real life. Talking to one another one another and having amazing art and then whether it's the art that changes whether it's some art changes, for example If there's a as I say like an amazing reception space, maybe you want to keep that big artwork there It's on the photos on the website. You want people to come into the space and be like, oh, yeah So that's it from the website. But then if there's other corridors or meeting rooms or spaces or lounge spaces or amenity spaces have that as a ever evolving conversation as opposed to arts on the wall, jobs done. Well, you could have that conversation, that launch, that engagement, that excitement all the time.

Adrian Strittmatter: 31:23

So on that point then would you say then you guys are collaborating enough with architects?

Calum Hall: 31:29

Mostly, I

Adrian Strittmatter: 31:30

are obviously

Calum Hall: 31:31

and interior designers. Mostly. Yeah. I think it's because of They are obviously trusted experts in the space, right? So they're talking about the look and feel, the textures, the fabrics, all that kind of stuff. And they tend to be trusted with then worrying about the art on the walls. so yeah, they've been really supportive. You know, they've been integral to to what I've been doing. And it's been amazing to understand more about their world and understand how, again, this kind of Venn diagram notion is. They overlap, you know? And um,

Adrian Strittmatter: 32:01

because you were talking about, you know, like, specific pieces where developers will spend a lot of money, let's say, on the reception desk, for lack of a better example. But you could also see how, collaborating with the architects and maybe, dare I say, the brand agency, you could create a visual language which is seen throughout the building, through the signage and all, and which is then

Calum Hall: 32:23

really unique. And then it's a talking point, for example, if you were to do hotels, you could have each room as a collaboration with an artist and each room has got its own style, its own thing, and then it becomes its, it takes on a life of its own. I think there's for example, we did this amazing project in Berlin with Brookfield and it was in Potsdamer Platz, which was the where brother. Yeah, where where Brothers Grimm used to live back in the day. So and so we painted and it was on a temporary. Like acoustic hoarding. Big, 20 meters long, God knows how tall. And we, and this is with Mr. Sens, and we painted a huge portrait of Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty there. So, not, so it was like this, and everyone was going around loving it, being like, Oh, cool, so this is Maleficent, Brothers Grimm, local area, talking point, transforming what was just a

Adrian Strittmatter: 33:09

boring Mm.

Calum Hall: 33:11

And then it became part of the street art tours. So then not only is the artwork great for the people there looking at it, because then it becomes part of like the cultural identity of the city. And people moving around and seeing it and planning the trips, and then, people will come on buses, check it out, go to the cafe, get a coffee. it becomes part of the kind of ecosystem of the area. And that's what, in my opinion, what a good collaboration between A surface, a real estate, an artist can do. It can transform the local area, even if it's just a little bit. But it shows a commitment to creativity, commitment to community, and makes money for the area. Brings people there,

Adrian Strittmatter: 33:47

transforms the space. So we talked about, I think this is really interesting in terms of the barriers to entry, how would you say, and you're talking about the Venn diagram around collaboration. What are the current initiatives you are working on to to show people not to be scared of art, that art brings visibility and overarching value and worth, and that everyone can become an art ambassador. What are the initiatives that you and Creative Debuts are working on to facilitate and open up the floodgates of collaboration?

Calum Hall: 34:20

Well, I think a lot of it is being a voice in the space and trying to understand, for people to understand that it's more than just the art on the wall. I think we're in a moment, we're at a moment in time where artists and creatives need the support. spaces need something unique. Places need to be driving footfall and I think a lot of it is just people understanding that all these kind of threads can go into the same entanglement type thing, you know, like not saying the art is the solution to all the problems, but it's certainly a net positive in all of these spaces. And so I think what I'm trying to do more of is and this is through LinkedIn and various other things is just communicate more that just because people are, just because art is subjective and it's a bit can be a bit anxiety driving to have conversations about art because it opens up people to have conversations about things that they don't necessarily know about. A lot of it is just accessibility, both from people that love art and want to have art within the space and also artists that, you know, taking their art practice seriously. Because this is the other thing. It's not just, Oh, you know, these artists are from marginalized communities. We need to put them on the wall. It needs to be great art. But the challenges at the moment is. The art world and the systems for young artists or emerging artists, whatever it is to get through is really difficult. if you're going to be in an art fair, you have to pay two and a half grand, two grand for a booth in an art fair, and then a commission on the sales. I don't, the artists that I work with don't have that money, and then to be in a gallery, it's a similar situation. You have to be selling art because galleries want to be working with artists that are making money, that they can nurture. Exactly, and they can, and they can manage their careers. So there's this kind of huge pool, of really talented artists looking out there for opportunities, trying to do everything, that I think can breathe some real fresh life into. Into not only just the art world, but into everyone's working experience, retail experience, commercial experience, workspace experience. So, I think a lot of it is just like, it's just accessibility with so many things. It's accessibility. And, what

Adrian Strittmatter: 36:19

we're trying

Calum Hall: 36:19

do is be, I understand that. Let's just say Hugo Boss again is working with an artist. Hugo Boss have objectives that they want to complete. they want to have a beautiful artwork, they want to spend X amount of money, they want to work with a local artist, and they want the artwork to be aligned with their their Brand guidelines their style and any artist should understand that to be successful this is

Adrian Strittmatter: 36:41

the relationship you have to have It needs to be, it needs to be a win win. It's

Calum Hall: 36:44

collaboration, you know Obviously, it'd be amazing if you could just paint whatever you want and everyone would buy it and that you know That can happen obviously artists selling artwork all the time but the opportunities for commissions and partnerships and brand allegiances and all these interesting things

Adrian Strittmatter: 36:58

are,

Calum Hall: 36:59

This is something that's, in the last ten years has gone a lot more, you know. Um, and artists understanding that their route is not just through a gallery. They can be the masters of their own destiny. They can be using the social media as tools for their work to get out there. They can be working with partners that they wouldn't conventionally be working with 10 years ago, whether it is real estate, whether it is whatever. And that's so much more exciting. we want all these things to be, to be speaking together and reading

Adrian Strittmatter: 37:26

off the same hemisphere. So in the coming years, do you see they're being and we talked about it at the beginning 2025. Good. Not good. diagonal wobbly thumb, you know, up down. Do you see the relationship between art destinations, places and therefore bricks and mortar and real estate? How do you see that? Are you more positive around the relationship and the growth

Calum Hall: 37:53

that relationship? I think it's undeniably important and I think it's I hope it's going more in that direction. you know, we were talking about people working from home or people going to the shops. People want, need experience to be leaving the house. they want to be, they want to be immersed in something. They want to be connected to something. They want to feel something. and I think the way that space is going to be able to, Separate themselves from others is what, like, their commitments to the arts, a commitment to, what they're doing for their employees, the space that they're in, the kind of impact that they have on the local communities, climate, all these kind of things, which I hope we're going to, as a country, we're going to be Focusing more on in wake of what's happening in the US, but I can't really see it being another way because I think the consumer whether that's, again, someone looking, you

Adrian Strittmatter: 38:42

know, if you're

Calum Hall: 38:42

into it, if you're going into a new office space to be interviewed, and you go in there and it's sterile, cold, like hasn't evolved in any time, there's nothing on the walls, it's dust is what you're going to be like, hang on a minute if they don't care about the space How, why would they care about me as an employee? and that's the same with all of it. So, I hope it goes more in that direction.

Adrian Strittmatter: 39:04

I, I

Calum Hall: 39:04

that, there's more conversations around, how art can be integrated more, as opposed to, again, just the, at the end, which is still obviously better than nothing. and how it can be used for,

Adrian Strittmatter: 39:14

know,

Calum Hall: 39:14

example, if there's, A new building being built and they want to show agents around to check it out for leasing fill it with artists Get live artists there get art on the walls, you know get all this kind of stuff like we did a collaboration with spring four and they they took over. It was at the museum of london like a little space and they were doing a networking party right and so instead of just everyone turning up like drinking because that's different as well right people are looking for different ways to connect that isn't involved around a pint glass we had live art happening we had a highlight reel kind of collection of amazing artworks we had this sake tomato who's an incredible painter she was made Doing a live painting. We had illustrators doing stuff on the windows in Posca pens and all of a sudden people like, wow, like this is different. This is an opportunity. Yeah. and it's just, it's memorable. It gives them the opportunity to speak to artists as well. seeing an artwork being created is amazing. And most people don't get that opportunity, seeing, whether it's a mural, whether it's a painting, whether it's a. Tattoo, whether it's an illustration, whatever, seeing a master at work in anything is amazing, seeing someone who's amazing at plastering is amazing, chefs, whatever it is, things can be done that, that just connect people and yeah, make

Adrian Strittmatter: 40:27

an experience unique. would you say there's anything to close off anything that you're really about in the art world and its potential of these new things or new forms of expression be applied to The great canvas, which is our, the city of London or cities around the world.

Calum Hall: 40:45

Yeah, absolutely. You've obviously got the kind of the rise of A. I. in our which is a bit of a double edged sword. Really. It'll be interesting to see. You know, artists that work in the planning and developing these amazing spaces. That's gonna be AI's coming after them a little bit. But, you've got vr, you've got ar we just did an amazing, mural with GSK in their new building in Tottenham Court Road. And they want, it's in the staircase and it was all about, um, well they wanted a mural that would be like a nature oasis that paid homage to Camden and to plants and nature that was used for medicinal purposes during the development of the company. So there was this amazing mural and then you hold your phone up to it and it pinpoints certain plants and the medicinal benefits and tells you about it on your phone. So art doesn't just have to be a flat experience. Now you can have all these incredible moments with technology that just unlock it to a different dimension, make it immersive. Educate. so I'm definitely excited by that, but I think it's what we were saying about the ongoing partnership between, developers, property, retail, workspace and art and that evolving partnership, because I think that's going to become more and more of a talking point. I think you're going to see people on LinkedIn saying, Oh, look at this amazing artist that my office has collaborated on, and everyone's going to get jealous, and everyone's going to want to do it, and it's going to become a talking point. It's going to become something that people peacock about a bit, being like, Oh, look at my office, look at this amazing mural. So, I'm excited by that. And I think that, you know, I just come from Deptford and I'm going on the train to London Bridge and I look out and there's cranes and buildings

Adrian Strittmatter: 42:17

being developed

Calum Hall: 42:17

all this kind of stuff. Exactly. Any wall, any surface is a canvas. And what's, what I love about the creative community that we represent is that's the mentality they are. Bright eyed bushy tailed to take on any challenge. It's not like they need to be. Oh, it needs to be in a museum or a gallery. It's like now we'll do product design. We'll do hoardings. We'll do live illustration. We'll do whatever because they want to get out there test their skills and show the world their talent. So I'm really excited by that. I'm excited by. More conversations about art, you know, obviously great to be here and you know I really appreciate the opportunity and I think that the more that people understand that working with creativity or artists It shouldn't be daunting. It should be a fun experience. It should be something where yeah, and something where you feel that if you're commissioning an art you're having like your voice heard too and you're feeling that's making that's Being something that's proud of and you understand that you're part of this milestone moment for the artist, and that's really what it is. It's but I also It's important to not get too dewy eyed about how important it is for the artist because of course it is But it's important for the space. It's important for people in the space looking at

Adrian Strittmatter: 43:24

it and all that It's mutually beneficial.

Calum Hall: 43:26

It's not

Adrian Strittmatter: 43:27

an act of charity

Calum Hall: 43:28

No, no, I think it does the opposite really. I think it's actually like, it's an amazing opportunity to put your flag in the ground and do something unique, do something amazing, have a talking point, show off, build an art collection that in theory could go up in value, show your, whether it's the people in the space, whether it's your employees, whether it's colleagues, clients, what you're about, and what you, what matters to you. because, so many beautiful office spaces, co working spaces, whatever. if you're in a co working space, that's all about collaboration and community. So the art on your wall is even more important then because if you're saying that this is all about bringing people together and shared experiences, shared knowledge, working together, like, the art is integral

Adrian Strittmatter: 44:08

for that.

Calum Hall: 44:08

so, so, I think there's going to be more and more. I think there's also going to be I think with hotels or spaces like that, I think there will be more, obvious collaborations between brands and artists, obvious, whether it's, because there's a lot with music and fashion, There seems to be a more of a acceptance or understanding that the, of collaboration with brands and understanding how to communicate with those people. And that's when we were doing the stuff with Adidas was quite interesting because, previously they hadn't really done anything like, well, we were the first third party company to do activations in the flagship store and we did one in Paris and what have you. But they understand that an artist is also. As in a visual artist is also going to be interested in music may also be following a football team and buy the football team shirt they may also that they're also into streetwear into culture, whatever. it's all these different shoots that come off it so if you're a brand or a developer or whatever, It's understanding that there's all these different touch points to connect with. And so then we would have our artist community turn up, love it, and they are then aligned with the Adidas community. Because they're like, oh, this is great. Adidas is this home for this amazing art exhibition.

Adrian Strittmatter: 45:21

And I think it's a beautiful way as well of that collaboration where, people are, when you go past the sort of, you know, it's instagrammable or it's content generation. There's definitely something about remaining relevant and by creating relevant spaces. The engage with people the way they want to be engaged with now. And I think there's a huge,

Calum Hall: 45:42

think

Adrian Strittmatter: 45:44

difference as well.

Calum Hall: 45:44

I think the instagrammable thing has been both a blessing and a curse. So it's amazing for people, it resonates with people and goes further afield. But then it can distort what's good and what's not good. and I don't think the objective should be how good is it on Instagram. The objective should be let's make something amazing in this space and by, of course, then it's going to be good. So I think, but I think this is part of the pressures that artists face. They face financial pressures about developing and getting their work out there and not having to have another, multiple jobs, whatever it is. But there's also the battle with the algorithm. And, I think it's going to be really telling. particularly, if you're a teenage artist now, what this impact is on people's mental health, the societal, implications of social media and all these kind of things, which is challenging, but I think when it's done right, art should seamlessly fit into the space and not be something that, it shouldn't be jarring, it should be harmonious within the space and within what people want the space to be. but I think there's going to be, I think that the future is exciting. I think, I think the more of these conversations and connections, between Industries that are just aligned, that are totally connected. You know, at the end of the day, if there's walls and there's artists, that's the match made in heaven. That's beans on toast, right? That's everything you need. So, so I think that the more of that and the more that actually, painters and decorators are expensive. So, you might be able to pay a little bit more money and you might have a one of a kind mural. that's kind of like, that's kind of how it can be seen. So, yeah, I'm excited. and I think there's definitely brands and businesses leading the way, Derwent, for example, they'd have amazing art, projects and commissioned some incredible art. And I've actually, I've not worked with them, but I've seen this, the stuff that they do, and it's brilliant. And, whether it's coworking spaces that do great stuff or hotels or whatever, it's all about these kinds of

Adrian Strittmatter: 47:29

like. well, experiences and

Calum Hall: 47:31

and experiences and people get obsessed about the new Louis Vuitton store and the artist partnership and this and that and it's like yeah Well, everyone could be doing that You don't need to be work You don't need to be working with the biggest artist in the world But you could actually work with one from around the corner that will change their life forever That will they will then have a never ending connection with that brand and business where they'll always be champions of that for example all the people i've Being supported with where it's Nando's it's Hugo Boss, whatever. Like, I understand how integral they've been in, in my growth, in my opportunity to learn in this business world and for the support of the artists that I was. So then I become an ambassador for those brands indirectly, because they've helped me and help the community and being supportive of that. And that's what it should be. it's about collaboration. It's about authentic collaboration and it's about, leaving a kind of positive legacy for everyone

Adrian Strittmatter: 48:20

involved. So murals, not walls. Between

Calum Hall: 48:24

Art, not ads.

Adrian Strittmatter: 48:26

are not

Calum Hall: 48:26

art, not ads. Yeah, we need ads. You know, I think, don't get me wrong. Like these are important billboards of important, but I think there's, I think the missing conversation is how do we have the objectives of the brand business, whatever, and the integrity of the artist, because what you want is that you want something, original, authentic, not just. replacing printing a photo with painting a photo because it just that's whatever

Adrian Strittmatter: 48:51

Well, I think we've clearly established the, the link between, a heightened level of experience, a unique level of experience, people's ability to and desire to engage with spaces that provide that sort of, yeah, that canvas for expression. And I think therefore that's a real sort of proof point that, engaging with art across the development cycle can really increase the visibility, can increase the relevance, and can increase the value across all

Calum Hall: 49:23

Yeah, and I think it's ultimately starting. What is the challenge and what is the objective if the objective is to drive footfall, art's perfect. If the objective is to improve the well being productivity and creativity of staff, it can do that. If it's about, transforming an unloved space into the talk of the town into a destination, it can do that. If it's about genuine, social responsibility and promoting diversity, equality and inclusion, It certainly does that, more so than the Silphers do in the building. So, depending on whatever the objective is, if it's about improving the value of a building, okay, well, you could have a boring building and you could get a mural artist that's internationally recognized and immediately, you know, look at what's happening with

Adrian Strittmatter: 50:03

the Banksy. project.

Calum Hall: 50:06

Curtain Road has got one. We did a pop up space there. It's got the policemen. That's being preserved in the wall. You've got Art Hotel, who have just built that massive new hotel in Old Street, and it's still got the Banksy rat cut in. That's because they know it's value. That's because they know people will be like, Oh, that's a Banksy. I want to stay

Adrian Strittmatter: 50:23

in the

Calum Hall: 50:24

that's there. I want to go and see that. So it's not like what I'm saying is all kind of away with the fairies or all this.

Adrian Strittmatter: 50:30

it's Proven

Calum Hall: 50:31

the time that it's integral to it. and I think when you know what we're saying about. People working from home, but shopping online, not necessarily needing to go into spaces. The more immersion, the more interactivity, the more creativity. I think it will, it'll highlight who's doing it right and who's doing it really well and who's not. and I hope there's more of it. Not just for my sake, and for the artists, but for the spaces that we go to. And,

Adrian Strittmatter: 50:55

like, I

Calum Hall: 50:56

that I'm, I'm sat in my flat on a laptop where I could be wandering around the streets being absorbed by everything being immersed in everything and I honestly just think we need

Adrian Strittmatter: 51:06

more of

Calum Hall: 51:07

I think with Social media, the pressures of life, stresses, family, the world, politics, whatever it is. I think the more that we're brought together in spaces to just have conversations and to connect and to understand that actually when it's all said and done, we're all just, we're all the same. And art is an amazing vehicle for that. So, that's the mission that we're on is to democratize the art world, to disrupt it along the way and to connect artists with

Adrian Strittmatter: 51:33

art lovers and transform spaces. What an eloquent A perfect outro Calum. Thanks ever so much for being on the podcast. It's always absolutely inspiring. One

Calum Hall: 51:46

wonder

Adrian Strittmatter: 51:47

as well. One take wonder maybe, who knows? Awesome mate, thanks ever so much.